is Meb now the greatest American marathoner ever

Note that de Mar would probably had been better if he had used modern training techniques.

His last Boston Marathon win was at the age of 41 and I believe the bulk of his cardiovascular training consisted of long walks and he rarely did speed work.

Charlie Sollers wrote:

I think it's Meb.

The competition is in a different universe than when Shorter, Rodgers, and Salazar ran. Rodgers's won 4x NYC/Boston because it can't mean the same thing as it would today. I don't think *anyone* could do that now with the quality and depth of competition.

KK probably has a good claim (winning over Tergat & Geb in a WR in London 2002), but it's complicated with two of his Chicago wins coming before he was a citizen. Also, just 10 to 15 years ago, competition wasn't what it is now. KK has a better PR, but how many guys did Meb beat with PRs better than KK's WR? Meb's PR is 2:08, but we should not by now that his PR doesn't reflect his ability.

How does Meb's PR not reflect his ability? Are you insinuating Meb's a flat-course 2:05 guy? What's that make Jeptoo?

agip wrote:

your basic argument is that every major east german athlete doped...except cierpinski.

Of course there were eastern euro athletes that doped. Did all of them dope? I doubt it.

Were there American athletes that doped in the 70's and 80's? For sure. Did all of them? I doubt it.

Fact is, Cierpinski never had a positive drug test and must be considered the greatest Olympic Marathon runner of all times along with Bikila.

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

agip wrote:

your basic argument is that every major east german athlete doped...except cierpinski.

Of course there were eastern euro athletes that doped. Did all of them dope? I doubt it.

Were there American athletes that doped in the 70's and 80's? For sure. Did all of them? I doubt it.

Fact is, Cierpinski never had a positive drug test and must be considered the greatest Olympic Marathon runner of all times along with Bikila.

....and the reason he declines all interview requests is....

agip wrote:

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Of course there were eastern euro athletes that doped. Did all of them dope? I doubt it.

Were there American athletes that doped in the 70's and 80's? For sure. Did all of them? I doubt it.

Fact is, Cierpinski never had a positive drug test and must be considered the greatest Olympic Marathon runner of all times along with Bikila.

....and the reason he declines all interview requests is....

errr...scratch that. he does do interviews.

He Flinched!!!!!!!! wrote:

How does Meb's PR not reflect his ability? Are you insinuating Meb's a flat-course 2:05 guy? What's that make Jeptoo?

2:05 on Monday? No.

When Rodgers was winning Boston and New York, there wasn't the competition of London and Chicago watering down those events.

Meb's wins were great but he just won Boston while Kipsang had just won London and when he won New York, Wanjiru chose Chicago to run and win.

And those events had depth from there.

Today's runners may be better but Meb hasn't been beating the best.

Bill Rodgers had the fastest time in the world three different years.

Meb- not even close.

Shorter - once

Khannouchi - three times, but only once as an American

I count Khannouchi as an *American, not the asterik. He's still a Moroccan in my eyes so I don't count him.

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

And if you repeat it 1000x, it's still not true.

wrong

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Cierpinski may have been a drug cheat

well, at least you admit it a sentence later

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

there is no proof

well, actually...

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

other than a guy claiming he has seen a record that claims that he was doping.

ah, good

reality sets in again

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Show me the document. And don't link to that stupid ESPN article that says that there was a guy who thought he saw a record that stated he was doping.

"Show me the evidence. But actually, don't do that."

fvcking imbecile

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Of course there were eastern euro athletes that doped. Did all of them dope? I doubt it.

we're not saying they all doped, just the one whose names appeared on a state sponsored list kept by the stasi government. which includes cierpinski.

see the difference?

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Were there American athletes that doped in the 70's and 80's? For sure. Did all of them? I doubt it.

Did Frank Shorter's name appear on a list of athletes who were supplied drugs by the government and protected by his federation?

no

see the difference?

Fast Runner Dude wrote:

Fact is, Cierpinski never had a positive drug test and must be considered the greatest Olympic Marathon runner of all times along with Bikila.

marion jones never had a positive drug test

she must be considered the greatest olympic female sprinter of all time along with flojo, who also never had a positive drug test

derpderpderp

If you're going to add the Kelly's and Demar to the honorable mention list you have to consider Ellison Brown.

Worth pointing out that the Africans boycotted in '76 -- may not have been as strong then as in the past (having won 3 straight golds '60-'68), but it's often overlooked when making the "Shorter should have won gold" argument.

In the 70's, New York wasn't a major race. The top marathon by far in terms of int'l field was Fukuoka. Shorter won four years in a row. That is about equivalent to winning London now four years in a row.

Just a note to "Big Apple Pie" that his name is Leonard "Buddy" Edelen that was the first in the world under 2:15.

My list didn't include KK, and should have in the top six or so.

Interesting book on East German doping is "Faust's Gold".

Sub 2:10 performances by Americans:

Meb - 9

Hall - 8

Khannouchi - 5

Salazar - 4

Ritz - 3 (with a 2:10:00 as well)

Abdi, Beardsley, and Rodgers - 2

Shorter by far a Olympic Gold and an Olympic Silver second to a Russian Doper.

Big apple pie wrote:

Men

Clarence De Mar

Khalid Khannouchi

Meb

Alberto Salazar

Frank Shorter

Bill Rodgers

Notable mentions

Johnny Hayes - first person to win the 26 mile 385 yard marathon, winning Olympic Gold in the process. He came 2nd and 3rd in Boston. Winner of the inaugural Yonkers marathon.

Albert Michelson - first man to go under 2:30

Leonard Elison - first man to go under 2:15

Women

1. Patti Catalano

2. Deena Castor

3. Joan Benoit

4. Miki Gorman

5. Kara Goucher

6 = Desiree Davila and Amy Hastings

If you are going to insist that you go waaaaay back why not just toss Phidippides in there. No way DeMar is on that list with shorter, rodgers, meb

Ho Hum wrote:

Flagpole wrote:

Meb has more significant WINS than Hall, but that doesn't make him greater than Hall.

This is the dumbest thing you've ever written.

Not true, because it's not dumb at all. Just because you happen to be in a race that has slow enough people in it for you to win it doesn't make you better than someone who has run 2:04 (wind aided) and 2:06 but didn't win against better competition.

Meb is GREAT. He is NOT as good a marathoner as Ryan Hall. Meb has longevity on his side for sure and consistency for sure, but 2:06 at London against that field that day for Hall and then the 2:04 at Boston that day...he's greater.

I agree. Hall's PR is 4min faster than Mebs, or in other words, while Hall is giving iterviews, Meb's just passed the 25mi mark.

The Boston field this year was watered down and even Meb admits that. They knew Kimetto and Desisa were in no shape and we all know that no danger would come from these noname 2:05 Dubai SHORT COURSE guys.