is Meb now the greatest American marathoner ever

between the eyes wrote:

If Rodgers had to race sub 204 and sub 205 he wouldn't have won Boston.

Neither would Meb.

Desisa 2:04:45 pr, Kimetto 2:03:45 pr, Hall 2:04:58 pr.... Meb did have to race sub 204 and sub 205 guys and still beat them to win Boston.

just sayin wrote:

meb is 5 minutes slower than his east african contemporaries

rodgers would whup most white guys today

no way is meb a goat

nice try comparing apples to oranges since meb doesn't race on pancake flat rabbited courses. what you should have written was the east africans run faster than meb does on harder courses but meb beats them head-to-head on harder courses (eg, nyc, boston, athens and london).

NotAustin18 wrote:

between the eyes wrote:

If Rodgers had to race sub 204 and sub 205 he wouldn't have won Boston.

Neither would Meb.

Desisa 2:04:45 pr, Kimetto 2:03:45 pr, Hall 2:04:58 pr.... Meb did have to race sub 204 and sub 205 guys and still beat them to win Boston.

No one ran near sub 2:05 yesterday, no one ran like they were a sub 2:05 runner yesterday. Everyone let a (till yesterday) 2:09 marathoner run away from them at 2:09 pace. I'd agree Meb and Shorter are the short list for GOAT, but don't act like Meb is a 2:05 guy because he beat 2:05 runners.

between the eyes wrote:

NotAustin18 wrote:

Desisa 2:04:45 pr, Kimetto 2:03:45 pr, Hall 2:04:58 pr.... Meb did have to race sub 204 and sub 205 guys and still beat them to win Boston.

No one ran near sub 2:05 yesterday, no one ran like they were a sub 2:05 runner yesterday. Everyone let a (till yesterday) 2:09 marathoner run away from them at 2:09 pace. I'd agree Meb and Shorter are the short list for GOAT, but don't act like Meb is a 2:05 guy because he beat 2:05 runners.

He beat those sub 205 guys though.

Meb is a baller. He's always in contention in a race. In a time trial like Kipsang's 2:03:23 Meb has no chance, but he is a savvy racer and can beat anyone in a tactical race.

NotAustin18 wrote:

Considering the current era with all the sub 204 and sub 205 East Africans, with what Meb has done, is Meb the greatest American marathoner of all time?

He gets my vote. When he won New York it was a weak field, but the Olympic Silver and today's Boston win are legit.

If there were an award for "Getting it Done" then he would win that. He's not even close to the greatest American marathoner ever though. You can not control the field, so while place IS a factor, it's not the only one. You have to consider time also.

If the greatest is measured in major marathon wins then Salazar, Rodgers, and Khalid Khannouchi are the only ones in contention.

If the greatest HAS to include the Olympics, then Shorter gets it.

If the greatest is simply time-based, then Ryan Hall gets it.

If the greatest is measured in consistency over a long time with some World Best times thrown in, then Khalid Khannouchi gets it.

Meb is great. He's not the greatest.

meb=goat wrote:

but meb beats them head-to-head on harder courses (eg, nyc, boston, athens and london).

are you saying meb beats the best east africans head-to-head and is therefore the GOAT marathoner?

because i don't believe that's true

Let's take a quick look at Bill Roger's resume and re-think this:

Boston marathon - 4 wins

New York marathon - 4 wins

He also won:

Fukuoka, Amsterdam, Houston and Melbourne marathons, which were major

Smaller marathon wins include:

Philadelphia (2:21)

Sedo Island, Japan (2:08:23 -200m short)

Maryland (2:14)

Kyoto, Japan (2:14)

Waynesboro (2:25)

Toronto (2:14)

Rio (2:14)

Stockholm (2:13)

Miami (2:15)

Those are just the first place finishes.

Also had a 3rd at Fukuoka, 2nd at the Olympic Trials, 3rd at Boston.

He lined up for 60 marathons including running Boston 5 years ago.

NotAustin18 wrote:

between the eyes wrote:

No one ran near sub 2:05 yesterday, no one ran like they were a sub 2:05 runner yesterday. Everyone let a (till yesterday) 2:09 marathoner run away from them at 2:09 pace. I'd agree Meb and Shorter are the short list for GOAT, but don't act like Meb is a 2:05 guy because he beat 2:05 runners.

He beat those sub 205 guys though.

Meb is a baller. He's always in contention in a race. In a time trial like Kipsang's 2:03:23 Meb has no chance, but he is a savvy racer and can beat anyone in a tactical race.

No one said he didn't. The original phallacy was that Rodgers never would have won Boston if he had to run sub 2:05, well, 30 years later, Meb didn't have to run sub 2:05 and still won.

Exactly...... wrote:

Thank you for the help with those who have a short memory or weren't there....

While Meb is one of the better American marathoners in recent history, Shorter & Rogers are still ahead in terms of Olympic Medals and big time marathon wins.

Actually Ive been watching the sport for a long time. Personally I think people give too much credit to Shorter because of his Oly medals. Rodgers won multiple boston and nycs, but like Shorter. Meb has an Oly medal, a win at nyc and now boston, AND he did that against a deeper field. Those guys didn't have (many) east africans to deal with.

I LOVE Bill Rodgers, he is what I wish every big time runner were like. Affable but an ice cold bad @ss competitor when it counted. Love the guy BUT I think at this time I'd take Mebs resume over his.

Don't bring Shorter and Rodgers to this day and age, move Meb back to their primes. Do you really think Meb would have done no better, or worse, than what's on his current resume?

It is definitely a different world (as in the WHOLE WORLD) with marathoning these days, so it is without question that Rodgers and Salazar ran against inferior competition. But, at the same time, back in the day, New York and Boston were THE two elite marathons in the world. Chicago wasn't then what it is now and neither were any of the others, so they still ran against the best there was on those days. While Meb had good competition for Boston, it's not like all of the very best in the world were there.

Star wrote:

Bill Roger's

Rodgers - ugh

between the eyes wrote:

NotAustin18 wrote:

He beat those sub 205 guys though.

Meb is a baller. He's always in contention in a race. In a time trial like Kipsang's 2:03:23 Meb has no chance, but he is a savvy racer and can beat anyone in a tactical race.

No one said he didn't. The original phallacy was that Rodgers never would have won Boston if he had to run sub 2:05, well, 30 years later, Meb didn't have to run sub 2:05 and still won.

Stop being obtuse. The OP clearly said in his original post that Meb had to beat 2:04/2:05 East Africans, and so it is obvious to anyone with a brain that he just forgot the word "guys" or "runners" when he reposted "If Rodgers had to race sub 204 and sub 205 *insert missed word here* he wouldn't have won Boston." Are you that dense? You must be if you butcher the spelling of fallacy.

your opinion, as usual, is wrong. i did find it very comical in your first supposition you completely omitted clarence demar, the guy who kind of won boston 7 times. it's nice that you arbitrarily think that his competition was weak enough to negate his wins but you don't think that the competition of the 70s and 80s guys was weak enough to negate their wins despite it being exponentially weaker than that of today.

just sayin wrote:

meb=goat wrote:

but meb beats them head-to-head on harder courses (eg, nyc, boston, athens and london).

are you saying meb beats the best east africans head-to-head and is therefore the GOAT marathoner?

because i don't believe that's true

you clearly didn't read (or at least comprehend what i wrote). i wrote that thinking that meb is 5 minutes slower than other marathoners when their prs were done on flat rabbited courses is comparing apples to oranges because meb has never run one of those races.

caller outer wrote:

between the eyes wrote:

No one said he didn't. The original phallacy was that Rodgers never would have won Boston if he had to run sub 2:05, well, 30 years later, Meb didn't have to run sub 2:05 and still won.

Stop being obtuse. The OP clearly said in his original post that Meb had to beat 2:04/2:05 East Africans, and so it is obvious to anyone with a brain that he just forgot the word "guys" or "runners" when he reposted "If Rodgers had to race sub 204 and sub 205 *insert missed word here* he wouldn't have won Boston." Are you that dense? You must be if you butcher the spelling of fallacy.

Actually, I didn't even notice the original phrasing, I was posting to his other post. Even still, same argument, if Meb just won a race against 2:05 guys, why the hell couldn't Rodgers have done so too? Thanks for the spellcheck.

Don't forget that Rodgers & Shorter didn't have to run against people on EPO either. Granted Im sure some were people blood doping or taking low doses of test. but still, epo has been a game changer for all endurance sports, that's why I weight Ws than times.

Who's done it when it counted? Meb has shown up consistently.

between the eyes wrote:

caller outer wrote:

Stop being obtuse. The OP clearly said in his original post that Meb had to beat 2:04/2:05 East Africans, and so it is obvious to anyone with a brain that he just forgot the word "guys" or "runners" when he reposted "If Rodgers had to race sub 204 and sub 205 *insert missed word here* he wouldn't have won Boston." Are you that dense? You must be if you butcher the spelling of fallacy.

Actually, I didn't even notice the original phrasing, I was posting to his other post. Even still, same argument, if Meb just won a race against 2:05 guys, why the hell couldn't Rodgers have done so too? Thanks for the spellcheck.

I'm not saying it took 204/205 to win. I'm saying there were sub 204 and sub 205 competitors. Could Bill Rodgers have beat sub 204 and sub 205 East Africans at Boston? no he couldn't. Even if it was all tactical and a slow course with no pacers, aka a true championship race, like Boston is every year. Meb is better due to the depth of his era. Sure he has a slow PR by today's standards, but its funny how much a PR matters when Meb's kicking their butts.

Fox trusts no one wrote:

1. Shorter - Gold and should be Gold, the best in the world for a number of years, and even today his times would be among the best Americans. He did it all.

2. Meb - yes this is a deeper era, and his W today edges Rodgers, who didn't run much slower on the same course.

3. Rodgers - almost did it all, at least in America.

Honorable Mention

Saladbar - Just about if not the greatest for a couple of years.

Khalid K. - Fast times

Hall - Also fast times in a tough era, but no major wins

thomas hicks and johny hayes are also olymoic marathon gold medalist's from the USA