Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 11/10

qrkid- No way should that kind of a jump be considered a pipe dream. A few years ago I ran 74:42 off of slightly higher mileage (around 60), and after messing around for a year or so at shorter distances I shifted my focus back to the half and ran 72:52 off of about 3 months of 70-80 mpw.

(to be honest, was shooting for 71-72 and just hung on after setting a 10K PR en route). Just stay consistent and you'll get there.

Runnersfix- Ah, good call on the gel. It'll probably be good practice for me to get used to taking them during hard efforts. Just out of curiosity, do you take a gel during your halfs? I was having a discussion with NP on this as he tries to take one around halfway but I don't take anything for races shorter than a marathon.

GoalRace: Boston Marathon

M: 6miles (treadmill)

T: 7miles + light strides

W: 10miles

T: 5miles (treadmill)

F: 10.5miles (hilly)

S: 5.5miles (grass trails)

S: 13miles (hilly)

57miles

Great job everyone! Boston crew, have you guys already booked hotels? flights? etc I haven't even looked into it yet and was wondering if prices are jacked up extra this year. Thanks!

TheGarbageDisposal - Maybe Charleston, SC in January:)

Green Bank- We booked already, same itinerary as last year. I have the misfortune of travelling a lot for work so I used points for my hotel and flights on the US Airway Shuttle are cheap ($220/ticket) this far in advance.

I wanted to give my feedback on Ramanujan's "5 Gear Workout" since I am sure my focus on next week's report is going to be on the Philly Marathon.

As Ramanujan described it, it is a 25:00 continuous tempo run comprised of 5x 5:00 sets. Each set has 5 paces that last for 1:00 each. The paces I had planned were 7:30/7:00/6:30/6:00/5:30/mi, which roughly equate to my long run/moderate/marathon/half-marathon/5k paces.

Here's how I did for the sets (which I ran on the road using a Garmin):

7:21/6:35/6:28/5:53/5:31

7:26/7:00/6:14/6:00/5:32

7:28/6:48/6:26/5:59/5:30

7:28/6:50/6:27/5:59/5:29

7:26/6:51/6:30/5:56/5:30

The workout is challenging because there is a tendency to switch straight from Gear 1 to Gear 3 - I kept finding myself having to slow down for each Gear 2 segment. By the time you get to Gear 5 pace, you feel like you are really flying, even though it is "just" 5K pace. I imagine this would make for a great XC workout, as you can practice surges and hit goal pace during the workout without overly taxing yourself.

I averaged 6:21/mi overall for the 25:00, which is a tad faster than marathon pace for me. I am sure there are multiple benefits from this kind of workout, aside from just breaking up the monotony of a 25:00 tempo run.

I would highly recommend it as a base workout (how I used it) for 5K-Marathon runners who are looking to re-introduce turnover without killing themselves, as an in-season workout for 5K or XC runners to practice surges, or for anyone who likes something new.

Thanks, Ramanujan, it was a fun one!

some people have asked about my tempo runs.

a couple months ago we did the first one of three planned.

it was 1mi 8k pace, 3min rec, then 4mi tempo, then 5min rec, then 5x200m.

a few weeks later was 1mi 8k pace, 2min rec, 4mi tempo, 5min rec, 5x30sec hard (no track)

last week was 1mi 8k pace, 1min easy (would've preferred just to roll into the tempo) 5mi tempo (4mi for most) 5min easy, then 5x30sec hard.

i didn't notice much of a difference from a regular tempo run when we had 2/3 minutes rest after the mile, but last week it was much tougher.

if you wish to try this workout, you can jump straight to whichever you think suits your fitness level. if i were to keep progressing this workout, i'd do a 6 mile tempo next time with the first mile harder, maybe 5:10ish depending on terrain. from there you just lengthen the tempo i guess, although i will not continue to do it.

and to whoever mentioned wanting to heat about my "barn burner" from this week, here you go

this tuesday was 5x1 mile. thought we'd do it on the track again but alas, it was on the grass. xc style i guess, as our goal race is a grass course. so the grass fields we use slow down your miles by 10-15 seconds most likely.

5:33, 5:29, 5:19, 5:13, 5:07. 3 minutes rec. didnt mean to start so slow but nobody else followed me when i took it out so i backed off. each mile was negative split i think.

avg was 5:20, i'd say worth easily sub 5:10 on the track. last one felt like 4:50-4:55 for sure.

TheGarbageDisposal wrote:

Ca$hclay- From your recent training it definitely seems like your speed is your ace in the hole. I know most running calculators would tell you that your 8K pace should only be about 5-7s/mi slower than your 5K pace, but I have a feeling you would be more comfortable if you aimed for about 10s/mi slower than your 5K pace for the first 3 miles and then start picking off guys. I considered myself a miler in HS and that would always be my strategy whenever I moved up to a longer distance that I'm not as comfortable with. I find it helps me a lot mentally as well when I start picking off guys late in the race and am able to build a lot of momentum off of it. Good luck!

Thanks for this. Also seems to be the consensus among my teammates. Tough part for me is not going out hard as that 1st mile always feels pretty comfortable regardless. 8K is a long ways though and I will have plenty of time to make a move if I'm feeling good. A big if for a dinosaur like me :) Cheers.

As per usual, I'm late to the party...

Flying Kilt – Wow that is one intense Saturday session. Awesome stuff! That kind of longer stuff always really impresses me.

cmm – Congrats on the podium! Glad to hear you had a great experience.

Stone Cutter – Awesome week dude! Its always great to hear when people report that they gave back to the running community. I still look back at some of the people who have helped get me to where I am and couldn’t be more appreciative. Btw, don’t sweat the Monday rest day. A little bit of rest is always good every now and then!

Garbage – Good luck this weekend, man. Kick some butt dude!!!

Ramanujan and StoneCutter,

I like the gear change workout a lot! I was thinking of how to change it week to week and I thought you could do it on four week cycles during a base season. For instance, start with LR/Mod/Mar/HM/5k for one week then progress to Mod/Mar/HM/10k/5k for week two, then the third week go Ma/HM/10mi(or Threshold)/10k/5k. By the third week it's really a tough workout with the middle of the workout paces being your threshold so you're practicing going below quite a bit, then getting recovery @MP. For the fourth week you could Time Trial or run a race to find out your new paces for the next cycle. Anyway, just my thoughts. Looks like everyone has had some great weeks!!

TheGarbageDisposal: About the gels when racing a half, I take one 15 minutes before, and at the half way as well. I do this to prepare for the final miles. I've had no problems. You should give it a try.

Forcerunner - great thoughts. There are many ways you could structure that workout - your idea of progressively increasing the speed of the gears is a great idea for 5k-10k or XC specialists. What's nice is you get to touch on a lot of different paces, without overly killing yourself on any of them, but still getting in some great quality.

I would imagine that your Ma/HM/Threshold/10k/5k scenario would be quite the workout indeed, and probably closer to what Ramanujan recently did than what I did. But the important point is you have to keep all the gears honest - you can't run Gear 2 or 3 too fast, and then Gears 1, 4, or 5 too slow.

TheGarbageDisposal/Runnersfix - I do the EXACT same gel routine as Runnersfix for my HMs - gel 15 minutes before the gun, then take one around the 10k-7mi mark. Works well for me also. Also get some gulps of water/Gatorade here or there as needed.

VF Runner - didn't hear from you this week, but if you are still racing Rothman this weekend just wanted to wish you good luck!

Green Bank - nice base week for Boston. I like how you varied your terrain/running surfaces (treadmill, grass, trails, etc.). That's a great way to work on all your stabilizing muscles and ward off potential biomechanical issues.

cmm - To answer your question: Yes. There are 5k's just about every weekend in NJ. However, the real trick is finding one with decent competition. I usually end up having to "time trial" most of the races I run. I know a lot of the really competitive guys around the state but most of them are in XC mode right now. So they're not running many road races.

I was on-call this week and ran another 73 miles and have no time to respond. I feel terrible about this. Am I still wanted here if I only have time to actually comment like one out of every four weeks? I feel like I'm just leeching off of the thread without offering anything.

Green Bank- Looking good man, another solid week of miles and getting started on the hilly runs early is a good idea for Boston prep as well.

Also, I don't know if the hotel prices are higher than prior years, but people are sure as hell booking hotels quicker. A lot of the rooms that I was able to book in January-February of prior years are already sold out!

Stone cutter / Ramanujan- That does sound like a pretty fun workout, I am having trouble making that sort of gear change right now. (partly due to where I am in my buildup, and partly due to the fact that I am at 6000 ft so my perception of effort on hard workouts is still screwed up)

Might have to make it a treadmill workout to start.

Ca$hclay- Hope the race went/is going well!

NJ Truth- Thanks man, and hope your 5K went well as well!

Runnersfix/Stone Cutter (again)- Ah, the gel strategy sounds like a good idea, although I forgot to grab a gel at the expo. Maybe they'll have one in the pre-race area. I know they're passing them out around 7-7.5 miles so I might grab one then as well. Hate to sound pessimistic and I am sure it could just as well be race day jitters, but I''m not feeling to hot right now so might as well experiment a bit.