Why can't American coaches figure out how to train for a marathon

Where is Renato? Has he posted recently?

* wrote:

Should Mosop get a nice effort medal even though Ritz whooped him?

No, of course not. Mosop went for it and failed but you know what? He's gone for it before and succeeded. Ritz didn't whoop anyone he just blew up less than the other guys. Don't fool yourself.

cmon now boi wrote:

Rupp ran 7:30i - this is one of the fastest times of all time.

I'm counting 77 times that folks have run under 7:30 (and don't give me this INDOORS!, under the lights, after 8 pm, during the fall, on the east coast of the US shit - 3000m is 3000m).

So, Rupp's run ranks as 78th fastest of all time. I suppose that what qualifies as "one of the fastest times of all time" is a matter of opinion. Personally, I'd include anything in the top 10. Top 20 would be stretching it. I certainly wouldn't consider anything above that. But hey, if you want to count top 100 nobody can stop you.

poihh wrote:

fair argument wrote:

Americans do not understand how to suffer. Suffering is essential in marathoning.

Likewise, why are their no Tour De France winners from Kenya or Ethiopia? Is it that suffering is essential in cycling and Kenyan and Ethiopian cyclists don't know how to suffer? They same could be said for dozens of other sports.

Chris Froome won the Tour De France this year and grew up in Kenya, might have been born there(not sure), but later became a British citizen. so yes, Kenya has produced a Tour De France champion even if they changed their nationality.

One Thing wrote:

cmon now boi wrote:

Rupp ran 7:30i - this is one of the fastest times of all time.

I'm counting 77 times that folks have run under 7:30 (and don't give me this INDOORS!, under the lights, after 8 pm, during the fall, on the east coast of the US shit - 3000m is 3000m).

So, Rupp's run ranks as 78th fastest of all time. I suppose that what qualifies as "one of the fastest times of all time" is a matter of opinion. Personally, I'd include anything in the top 10. Top 20 would be stretching it. I certainly wouldn't consider anything above that. But hey, if you want to count top 100 nobody can stop you.

I counted 28 outdoor and 6 indoor (all of whom had done it outdoor too).

Numbers numbers numbers wrote:

What the US ends up with is a tiny number of Americans who continue training after high school or college, and this tiny number does not necessarily include the runners who started with the most potential. And there are not enough financial resources out there for 50 Americans to choose to train with or like Ritz rather than choosing another career path.

This. It's all about having a larger pool to draw from. The Africans wouldn't even be in the sport if it wasn't for OPEN prize money, which is far more lucrative to them and draws out bus loads more athletes training together and full-time. Who knows what the numbers are, but lets say there's 1000 training full-time in Kenya vs 10 in America. Yes, you're more likely to get some 2:03 guys from 1000 than 10.

Stop putting the blame on coaches, improper training, and whatever else. If someone can solve the prize money issue and how it's appropriated, you might actually get some 2:03 guys from the US, Great Britain, New Zealand, and other first world countries.

people make it more complicated than it really it is. there are two main factors at play.

- moderate weather year round (high of 60 - 80F, low above 32F)

- moderate altitude (5000 - 9000 Feet)

combine the two with talent, passion and 5-10 years of steady training and you are going to see a lot of good things happen.

the most depth comes from the places on earth that combine those two, which coincide within a few degrees of the equator. columbia was hitting well above it's weight in cycling before the EPO era and is now doing so again. ethiopia, sudan, uganda, tanzania and kenya pretty much clean up the medals in running.

if you are an endurance athlete and aren't training the majority of the year in moderate weather at altitude you are either really rich with resources to possibly get around that artificially (Nike Oregon Project) or you're wasting your time, but most likely the latter even among the NOP guys.

if you need 350 degrees of heat for 20 minutes to bake your cookies just right, you can't expect the same result by putting them in a 200 degree oven for 10 minutes and then a 500 degree oven for 10 minutes.

I think groups like Hanson's should be running faster. 2:03? I don't know but a group like that should be running 2:06-7's anyway.

Couldn't help myself wrote:

One Thing wrote:

I'm counting 77 times that folks have run under 7:30 (and don't give me this INDOORS!, under the lights, after 8 pm, during the fall, on the east coast of the US shit - 3000m is 3000m).

So, Rupp's run ranks as 78th fastest of all time. I suppose that what qualifies as "one of the fastest times of all time" is a matter of opinion. Personally, I'd include anything in the top 10. Top 20 would be stretching it. I certainly wouldn't consider anything above that. But hey, if you want to count top 100 nobody can stop you.

I counted 28 outdoor and 6 indoor (all of whom had done it outdoor too).

Just guessing but it appears that you did not read my post correctly. Please note "77 times...", not "77 athletes..."

Also note that using times is the appropriate metric since 'cmon now boi' stated that "this is one of the fastest times of all time".

Not sure if I follow you wrote:

Mosop went for it and failed but you know what? He's gone for it before and succeeded.

You know what that tells me?

His coach hasn't figured out how to keep him fit for marathon training.

How do you go from being able to run a 2:03 flat marathon to not being able to hold a slower pace?

Poor preparation.

Think Bill Squires of the old GBTC did.

Bill Rodgers--Alberto Salazar-randy Thomas-bob hodge and others.

The real issue is that we do not have the numbers of top talent attempting the marathon.

We have 2 guys. Only 2.

Ritz (27-Low/60-Flat)

Hall (59:43/ 2:06)

Teg and Meb are disregard as top talent TIME-WISE. Meb is very competitive in un-paced marathons (NYC and OG), but has not proved to be capable of sub 2:09. Given his age, I do not see that occurring. Teg is new to the distance. With that said, I would have to see a sub-60 HM before I would consider him top talent.

Kenya has way more sub-60/27-Flat guys actually training for the marathon.

We won't ever be competitive unless more top talent WANTS to do the marathon.

The guys who have potential for sub 2:07 - Rupp, Derrick, Hill, Bumbi, True, Trafeh, Puskedra. Maybe I left some notables off the list. These guys would need to do 130-150mpw and dedicate themselves to the marathon.

This is one of the better posts I have seen and what squires has been saying for years. All of the top emerging kids coming out of college have a desire to continue to run track (culture , more exciting , pipe dreams of becoming the next Rupp) but the reality is that if you are a 13:30 guy coming out of college and your desire is to legitimately make a living in the sport, your best shot for a run at truly international class running lies in the marathon. But that takes time! Years and years of ups downs drudgery and day after day of running eating and sleeping. Our runners of the 70s had the patience to do it. Most of today's kids can't go 90 min without some form of "engaged entertainment" tweeting facebook text email video games and in speaking to the Kenyan and Ethiopian coaches they actually say they believe this makes us less likely to do well in the marathon ie inability to deal with being bored for long periods.

2:15 old guy wrote:in speaking to the Kenyan and Ethiopian coaches they actually say they believe this makes us less likely to do well in the marathon ie inability to deal with being bored for long periods.

There may be a scientific basis to this:

American public to distance runners: "We're just not that into you..."

For Americans, unless you're winning ans setting records in the 100, 1,500 or marathon, you pretty much have zero public visibility or press coverage. Americans could set world records in the 5k and 10k every year and it would really make no difference as far as being a "sports star."

Unless you have a big personality or showmanship like Bolt, running is an invisible sport for the most part, now being taken-over by mud runs, crossfit, and getting color powder thrown on you.

A third-string bench warmer in the NBA will make more money per year than Galen Rupp ever will....

A problem is that most of America's top talent are in elite training groups. Groups are good but they are limited in size and are exclusive. Instead, they should be more open for any young guns to join the runs and show their stuff. This is what Bill Rodgers used to do - let anyone run and challenge him. And I have heard this is how the Kenyan group runs proceed. They all start and the run gets eventually faster and longer until only the strongest remain at the finish. Plus, I have read that many American coaches discourage having training runs turn into races everyday. If they instead encouraged this we might see someone rise to the top.

World Beater wrote:

Or are you only comparing the US coaches to Ethiopian and Kenyan Coaches?

You could compare them to Japanese coaches, for a start. They've figured something out the U.S. hasn't.

Amerikano wrote:

The guys who have potential for sub 2:07 - Rupp, Derrick, Hill, Bumbi, True, Trafeh, Puskedra. Maybe I left some notables off the list. These guys would need to do 130-150mpw and dedicate themselves to the marathon.

I don't think that kind of mileage is necessary.

What is important is the workouts. As long as they are getting in the necessary workouts, such as 40km runs as slightly slower than marathon pace, 25km marathon pace runs, 10-12km threshold runs, and SPEED work, i.e., 10x400 (sammy wanjiru did this) they should be good and VO2 max repeats. They don't need to be running 20-25 miles on their easy days. That will just wear them out for the main workouts.

You cannot not neglect speed in the marathon today. It is so fast at the too level that athletes need to touch on faster paces. Not make them an emphasis, but at least touch on them once every 2 weeks or so in a workout. And they need to do the FAST long runs that canova athletes do, not just easy long runs.

Nope nope nope wrote:

I disagree. The year that rupp ran 26:48, that was one of the fastest times of that season. Same with solinskys 12:55.

One of the fastest times of the year does not automatically mean fast. 26:48 is not fast.