Are Chiropractors the biggest, Joke Ever?

Some comments on this thread from a neurologist:

1)I don't know much about what chiropractors know/do, so I wouldn't be hasty to criticize the profression.

2) I have had many patients see chiropractors for various reasons, and many of them have had fairly good results for musculoskeletal pain conditions (non-malignant lower back pain, muscle spasm, cervicogenic headache, and so forth). Some patients have had no improvements, and I have had rare patients say that a chiropracic manipulation made them feel worse.

3) Stroke is a well known complication of rapid thrust manipulation of the cervical spine which can result in vertebral artery dissection and stroke.

The reason for this results from the fact that the vertebral artery passes through the transverse foramina of the vertebrae of the cervical spine as depicted below

Stroke is an extremely rare complication of chiropractic manipulation, and the risk of stroke in rapid thrust manipulation of the cervical spine is estimated to be on the order of one in one million (1/1,000,000). Chiropractors are generally aware of this risk.

I have seen 3 cases of stroke related to chiropractic work in my career. In only one of the three cases did the stroke symptoms develop on the table (The chiropractor instantly suspected a stroke and sent the patient to the ER). The other two cases ocurred shortly after manipulation. In one case, the patient was a jiu-jitsu practitioner (a grappling martial art), and this may have been the cause of the dissection rather than chiropractic manipulation (he had done both within a few days of the event).

4) Many treatments in allopathic medicine are not evidence based. Few few neurosurgical treatments are based on randomized controlled trials. In fact, some common medical practices have become commonplace despite significant evidence against their efficacy (examples would include percutaneous intervention for coronary artery disease in stable angina, percutaneous intevention in acute stroke, various treatments in progressive forms of multiple sclerosis).

5) I am highly skeptical of the treatment of anything other than anatomical musculoskeletal problems with chiropractic manipulation. I think that anyone claiming that physical manipulation can treat autism [as exemplified in an earlier post] should be treated with extreme skepticism

If you look at his web page, there are a variety of treatment modalities that are not chiropractic. Just because they are done by a chiropractor, does not make them chiropractic.I personally find this guys webpage to be appalling. The practice of Applied Kinesiology, as it is practiced by some in the profession, is quackery IMO. These are the guys doing muscle tests with people holding vitamin bottles, etc. This does not represent the profession as a whole, however.

If a chiropractor claims that he can give you a supplement that will heal you, or that he has spent a lot of time studying material that traditional doctors "never pay attention to", he's a quack.

The sad thing is, distance athletes love to believe these types of practitioners, because they are often looking for a non-traditional solution. Rest? Surgery? Hell no they say, and instead opt to believe these snake oil salesmen. I have seen some of the fastest runners in the nation buy into self-proclaimed "cutting edge" chiropractors, because they are convinced that it gets them ahead of the curve that other athletes must adhere to.

The problem is not that all Chiropractors are quacks, but that many treat their license as an anchor of legitimacy in a much larger group of treatment claims. If someone approached you and said "I went to massage school and can cure your gluten allergy", you would laugh in their face. A licensed chiropractor who claims the same thing, and laces his claims with lots of random large words on the other hand...people will buy into what he's selling a lot faster.

I've seen good friends fall for this and drop loads of cash. Once they've wasted enough money, it's hard to convince them that the treatments aren't working. Their races may be slow, but they are always ready for that breakthrough that will come after just one more session with their witch doctor masquerading as a physician.

really?????? wrote:

If you look at his web page, there are a variety of treatment modalities that are not chiropractic. Just because they are done by a chiropractor, does not make them chiropractic.

I personally find this guys webpage to be appalling. The practice of Applied Kinesiology, as it is practiced by some in the profession, is quackery IMO. These are the guys doing muscle tests with people holding vitamin bottles, etc. This does not represent the profession as a whole, however.

Sure there are a variety of treatment modalities that aren't chiropractic.

Which means that unless he is also trained in: child psychology, developmental psychology, early childhood education, neurorehabilitation, gynecology, pediatrics, gastroenterology, and immunology... just to name a few, he is WAY outside of his scope of practice.

This is the main problem with the chiropractic profession. Wide claims to treat conditions which they are untrained to treat.

neurologists wrote:

Few few neurosurgical treatments are based on randomized controlled trials.

Of everything you wrote, this is all I needed to be convinced that you really are a practicing neurologist and not just some internet bullshitter. :)

RRRR wrote:

If a chiropractor claims that he can give you a supplement that will heal you, or that he has spent a lot of time studying material that traditional doctors "never pay attention to", he's a quack.

And yet the mountains of pills, tablets, and capsules prescribed AMA pharma puppets are all in our best interests? LOL. Quack, quack.

E. Bonix wrote:

RRRR wrote:

If a chiropractor claims that he can give you a supplement that will heal you, or that he has spent a lot of time studying material that traditional doctors "never pay attention to", he's a quack.

And yet the mountains of pills, tablets, and capsules prescribed AMA pharma puppets are all in our best interests? LOL. Quack, quack.

If you contract a serious illness, will you stake your life on your claims?

jkjkjkjjjjjjjjjjj wrote:

Medicine is "evidence based." Billions of dollars are spent by the leading research organizations in the world (HARVARD, YALE, CAMBRIDGE, STANFORD etc.) investigating "best practices." These studies are published in the most reputable scientific peer-reviewed journals in the world.

Chiropractic medicine has no reputable, to even remotely the degree that medicine has, peer-reviewed journals.

There is a reason no IVY League universities have chiropractic schools. Simply put if there was unequivocal proof that it worked it would be incorporated into traditional medicine. There is none, so it is not.

^^^ this, kind of.

Before Koch and Pastuer the only white coats worn were those of the scientist, who was at that time either a chemist or microbiologist. Physicians actually wore a black coat to better hide the blood they would accumulate from blood letting, a psuedoscience rooted in conjecture.

It was decided that medicine needed a change, and needed to associate itself with something concrete and real, rather than outdated and non-evidence based practices. Germ theory, antibiotics, and evidence based medicine were adopted along with the white coat in medicine's decision to align with science.

I look at chiropractors, naturopaths, homeopaths in there white coats trying to align themselves with the legitimacy of modern evidence based medicine and can't help but think that they are the black coated physicians of old.

Some chiropractors have produced effective anecdotal/personal results and have excellent clinical skill in non-urgent outpatient orthopedic settings, and have little in common with a FP physician who treats HIV, an ankle sprain, and diabetes in the same hour. The remarks comparing chiropractor education to medical school are laughable. I loved the "diagnosis" education. I'd love to see a chiropractor work up an acute abdomen in the ER without google.

Yeah, sometimes I joke. Can't say that chiropractors are particularly large, though.

Precious Roy wrote:

Doctors are the worst for soft tissue injuries. They only have four tools: rest, medication, PT and surgery. No training in deep tissue manipulation.

Really? Four tools versus one...geez, I think I rather take more options to healing then one glorified massage therapist.

Correction..."than", not "then"...:)

Not that it matters but I will share my experience with chiros here.

FIrst, let me say that I'm no fan of MDs either so you won't hear me pumping them up.

I'm 41 years old and started running in my early 30s to get in shape for an upcoming basketball season. I had been having back problems since my late 20s. I eventually gave up basketball because of my back problems. I am able ti run with no back pain so I am still able to stay fit. My back is still a huge problem for me in my every day life outside of running.

The first chiropractor I saw was a friend of mine. He said that he could fix my back no problem and that I just needed to see him several times a week for adjustments. Not only did I see him but my girlfriend at the time did as well as her sister. We all went to all of our treatments and none of us improved. My friend also told me that since he started getting adjustments that he had "stopped getting sick and has not even had a cold." Needless to say, nothing worked for me with him. Oh he also tried to sell me on "cold laser therapy" that he said could cure all sorts of things including my balding hair. I am not bullshitt*ng.

I saw another chrio who was a woman and went through a bunch of treatments and nothing happened.

I saw a third chiro who was a friend of mine. He didn't say that he could cure me. He did give me an x-ray and diagnosed me with spondylolisthesis. He treated me but I never got better either.

This year I saw my fourth chiro off of a groupon. They were offering x-rays and an exam for $35. A friend of mine who is a neurosurgeon wanted to look at my back and asked if I could get him an x ray ( he lives out of state). I got the x-rays and then got the hard sell from the chiro. He said "what can you no longer do?" I told him that I no longer played basketball and his response was " would you like to play basketball again?" I said that it didn't really matter, I just didn't wanna look like a 90 yearold man every time I stood up. He told me that the he could "patch it" or "fix it". If he patched it it would last a year and if he fixed it it would last for a lifetime. I asked him what that would entail and he told me adjustments four times a week and special exercises that only his office could do. I told him that I didn't have insurance and he assured me that he could get me financing. What he wanted me to do would have cost me about $2500 to patch it and over $5000 to fix it. When his assistant came in she told me that she gets adjusted for everything from headaches to menstrual cramps and and adjustment cures her of those ills immediately.

So, armed with my x-ray, I send it off to my friend the neurosurgeon. He said that i did not have spondylo and that my spine looked good. Then another of my friends who is an osteopath looked at my x-ray and agreed that i do not have spondylo. I want to say that my friend who is a neurosurgeon is someone who always thinks of surgery as a last resort. He was a wrestler in high school and tore his ACL in the state tournament and still won with a tore ACL. He also never got surgery for it because he just didn't think it was necessary. He certainly doesn't think that I need back surgery, he's just trying to figure out what's wrong with my back. He's an open minded guy and says that unfortunately he sees several patients a week who have paid for chiropractic care and gotten nothing from it. Of course that's anecdotal but take it for what it's worth.

This is how I feel about chiropractic. If you have an acute injury, I feel like it can help you. So that would explain why sports teams have them. In my experience it has done nothing for my chronic injury.

I want to say a couple of other things. My friend who is a neurosurgeon is one of the smartest sharpest people you will ever meet. He's a great listener and has just an amazing mind. He is open minded and is always willing to investigate any and all options regardless of what may be popular opinion with other MDs. In contrast, my one friend ( the first chiro) is not very smart. He also has some inferiority complex and every time I see him he feels the need to tell me that "chiros are recognized as doctors in x amount of states." He also invariably pulls the "sports teams all have chiros now." I went second grade through high school with him and he was never once in an advanced class with me or in gifted or anything like that. When I told him I was going to med school he pulled out the "chiros are docs in x amount of states' line for the 100th time. I never went to med school anyway for other reasons.The other chiro friend of mine is not smart either. He murders the English language in every day conversation. He's nice though and isn't pushy at all and doesn't take himself too seriously.

Chiros are the biggest joke ever. All they want you to do is enroll in some plan and see them several times a week. At the end of that period the only difference you will notice is in your wallet.

Your coach is no doubt, older and wiser than you. The USOC Medical staff, which is by far the most extensive sports-medicine staff of its kind in the world, is LED BY A CHIROPRACTOR! That should tell you something about the value of sports-oriented chiropractic care. Link here:

http://www.teamusa.org/For-Athletes/Medical-Services/Clinics-and-Staff

That being said, chiropractic is a rather diverse field, not all chiros (perhaps most) are the best fit for what most athletes (especially runners) want. But if you go to a chiro who emphasizes or specializes in care of athletes, it can give you a competitive edge and decrease your injury risk. Look for a chiro with more extensive and direct experience in sports and or one that possesses advanced certifications such as CCSP or DACBSP or CSCS, et al.

I would love to see an orthopedist work up an acute abdomen without Google or diagnostic imaging as well.

I was out for a year with an ITB injury. Also had ITB flareups twice before that. I tried all kinds of techniques to get back into running.

Then caved and saw a Chiro. After 3 weeks of sessions I was fixed. Never had ITB problems again and it's been 8 years since.

Can someone please explain to me why nearly all of the best and the brightest students go to medical school and not chiropractic school? To be honest, Chiro seems like a really great field, but I've never heard of the freshman class at Harvard all vying for an A in Chemistry so they can go to chiropractic school.

They deserve more credit wrote:

I was out for a year with an ITB injury. Also had ITB flareups twice before that. I tried all kinds of techniques to get back into running.

Then caved and saw a Chiro. After 3 weeks of sessions I was fixed. Never had ITB problems again and it's been 8 years since.

I have had episodes of sciatica and tinnitus quickly resolved by chiro treatment after MDs offered me nothing but spin and bullshit.

I can also tell you that the first chiro I ever saw 20 years ago was a complete charlatan. The lesson I learned: you simply have to look around for the good ones, they are out there. Get a referral.