Getting real tired of these 13:0X races with 53-54 second last laps

they should run like lukas verzbicas did back in the day

This is a great point by JR.

Lagat led most of the USATF 5000. Did it look like he paid an "aerodynamic penalty" to you? No. In normal conditions, the benefit of drafting is much more psychological than than aerodynamic. A mentally strong runner is not going to be affected by "breaking the wind" because there is almost no resistance to still air.

Meanwhile, look at Rupp in the 5,000. By staying "aerodynamically" smart in the middle of the pack, he stumbled and was clipped repeatedly. He could easily have fallen, which we know from his DL DNFs he doesn't handle well. He had a total hissyfit at other runners.

All of that energy wasted Rupp more than frontrunning hurt Lagat when it came to the bell.

Please.

That "race" shouldn't be used as data to support any argument. World class runners at 15:00+ 5K pace are essentially jogging, making that race a useless outlier. Of course Lagat didn't pay an "aerodynamic penalty". Good grief.

Yes, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. We don't know if Farah is the best runner in the world. His PR is still in the 12:5x range, isn't it? The guys he has beaten have shown that they are capable of running 12:40. Farah has not shown this capability yet. So, as of yet, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. That's what you are if you keep getting out kicked in slow races when you have the faster PR.

The race in Lausanne was only a little slower than the fastest ever there, which went in 12:59 while attempting to get to 12:53 or so. It is hard to do at the modest but non-trivial altitude of the city.

As for times, I thought these things were Races, not Postal time-trial send-in-your-best-time events. If you do not like racing, then why the heck do you follow track and field?

due to blood passports, no one is able to run 12:40.

12:50 at best. Moh Fara can run with anyone.

He is the monster.

They aren't races, unless they are racing.

yyy wrote:

due to blood passports, no one is able to run 12:40.

12:50 at best. Moh Fara can run with anyone.

He is the monster.

They were running 12:40 caliber races just last year. What are you talking about? Farah had not proven that he can run with anyone. All he's proven is that he can kick with anyone.

I agree that race was pathetic, but you are showing yourself to be scientifically clueless.

Are you really saying that there is significant resistance from air at 13:00 pace but not 15:00 pace? What about elite women? Men benefit from drafting but women don't? This is one of the stupider posts I've seen this week.

The answer, of course, is that there is almost no benefit to "drafting" at ANY pace. There is a psychological benefit to being paced, though, which many stupidly ascribe to "wind-breaking."

hchdh wrote:

Yes, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. We don't know if Farah is the best runner in the world. His PR is still in the 12:5x range, isn't it? The guys he has beaten have shown that they are capable of running 12:40. Farah has not shown this capability yet. So, as of yet, they are aerobic monsters compared to Farah. That's what you are if you keep getting out kicked in slow races when you have the faster PR.

hchdh wrote:

Farah had not proven that he can run with anyone. All he's proven is that he can kick with anyone.

Now, if only they could race like it.

First of all - I agreed with your premise - Lagat did not pay an "aerodynamic penalty" in that race.

Second, you call me scientifically clueless, and I'm not sure why. You infered something that I wasn't saying. You are the one who used a statistical outlier to support your "scientific" argument, which is something that people who aren't "scientifically clueless" don't do.

If you want to speak intelligently in support of your argument, maybe use a body of data from races that tested the physical abilities of elite male 5k runners (12:55 - 13:15 range for example), or elite female 5k runners (14:40 - 15:00).

STOP misusing the the word "jogging"! 15 min 5k pace is 2:06:24 marathon pace! That ain't jogging!!!!

maj wrote:

If you want to speak intelligently in support of your argument, maybe use a body of data from races that tested the physical abilities of elite male 5k runners (12:55 - 13:15 range for example), or elite female 5k runners (14:40 - 15:00).

Zzz. You're just getting worse now.

Are you saying the wind resistance only exists at PR pace but not when running at tempo pace?

So, aerodynamic penalty when a 13:00 guy leads a 15:00 race, but not when he leads a 15:00 race?

Here's the answer: Negligible aerodynamic benefit to drafting, at ANY running speed.

subfive wrote:

STOP misusing the the word "jogging"! 15 min 5k pace is 2:06:24 marathon pace! That ain't jogging!!!!

He's not misusing the word. It IS jogging if they are only running 2 miles at that pace.