My wife is a professor and she deals with a lot of coddled students.

I would like to know what middle school and high school teachers think is "working too hard." Does that mean working harder than they ever did in school? After all, you be a slacker in high school, get in a no-name college, and graduate with C's and still become a teacher.

I ask, because I just had a second teacher tell me my child was working too hard. I am so sick of inflated grades and low standards that let a kid do very little and still get A's. I insist my child actually do the work WELL. But this makes the teachers uncomfortable, because my kid just exposed their low standards. So in my opinion, sceondary school teachers and their bosses should shoulder a lot of the blame for this entitlement problem in the college-aged crowd.

edit: "you ^ can be"

It sounds like your wife teaches at a crummy school. I went to one of those fancy liberal arts colleges in the NE, where there were LOTS and LOTS of rich kids. But everyone seemed to try hard and take pride in their work.

lucKY2b wrote:

Students come in with the expectation that due dates are always flexible, because the teachers in HS were always willing to take late work.

Students come in thinking that the test questions and answers will be identical to what they were spoon-fed in class back in HS. They don't think they need to be able synthesize the material.

Students come in thinking that trying hard counts for more than actual performance. Tests often carry a much lower weight in HS than in college.

It's not all their fault; it's what they've come to expect. The culture needs to change at an earlier age; not everyone is above average.

Yes, change the culture at an earlier age. The high school problems stem from poor preparation at the middle school level. But its hard for the middle school teachers since they have to help the kids catch up on what they missed in elementary school. The root of all of these problems is kindergarten. Some of those kids can't even read! I blame the pre-schools.

/sarcasm

Look, high school is not college. Of course the expectations are going to be different. They should be! Expectations grow as one moves through the educational system. I'm not saying that professors should excuse excessive class absences. They shouldn't. But education is more than book learning. Educators should be preparing their charges for life. So, yes, make students face consequences for their actions ( or in actions). But stop blaming everyone else. You're part of the system...do your job.

Ha, I tried something like this once. Here was my mentality at the time -

This was a gut class. It was very easy. I got an A on the first exam, then stopped going to class and discussion sections. Unfortunately this meant I missed the in-class quizzes and homework. Showed up for the second exam and got a B+.

By the end of the semester due to the missed assignments I was looking at a D. I went to the professor asking if I could do anything to make up the grade. He said no. Fair enough.

I ended up dropping the class. I understand where he was coming from, what's on the syllabus is what is expected. At the time I almost felt...annoyed that I had to go to class and do homework. If I could show up to class only a few times and still ace the material, why did I have to do all this busywork? What was the point?

Guess I thought I was too cool for school. Oh well.

Wait - no. The more I think about this I guess I still AM annoyed about this, 10 years later. If I can still get good grades on exams, why do I have to waste my time coming to your class and doing homework assignments? Isn't the point to master the material, not just shuffle paper around?

Yeah I don't get the bashing of the wealthy kids on this thread. I went to a very good private college and in my experience the worst students were OVERWHELMINGLY the poor students there on scholarships. They came from worse schools so they were behind, they didn't know how to deal with teachers who actually expected quality work from them, and they were used to being the best student without trying because they came from a bad school. Granted, some of the rich kids did have a sense of entitlement, but they mostly performed much better academically.

" Isn't the point to master the material, not just shuffle paper around?"

Not so much in undergrad. Lots of busy work.

And yes, "allow me to explain" is an idiot. He admits that the teacher specifically outlined the requirements for a good grade in the class, and that he understood those requirements, yet he chose not to fulfill them. Despite this, he still expected to get a good grade despite admitting that he did not do what was required. Unbelievable.

Those of you who think this issue is unique to kids from wealthy families have never been to a crappy high school in a poor urban neighborhood. These schools are full of kids who don't even show up half the time, but expect to be passed on to the next grade anyway. You just don't see them in college because they don't bother to go to college. Entitled slackers exist all along the socioeconomic bell curve.

Ha, I'm not looking for simpathy, but is it really that unbelievable?

If your class is easy enough that I can learn it all from the book, again, why can't I just demonstrate that on an exam?

So far the only reason given is that it's on the syllabus.

I graduated from college in '93, so things have changed.

I take some umbrage with the statement about people who miss class, though. I worked 3 jobs to put myself through school because I could not qualify for loans, had no parental support, and had no scholarships. I had to graduate in four years, or I was sunk. That meant taking a full load, but often took one class per semester that I routinely skipped. It was always a class I knew I could get a B or better in just from reading the book, etc, and taking the tests.

I took a "Computers in Business" class that I only went to four times -- the first day, and three exams.

I was skipping because with my schedule, it simply wasn't possible to work and make all my classes and graduate in four years.

wifeprof wrote:

Her latest: she's had a student that has not showed up to class since September 27 and he just emailed her today and said he wants to make up some of his assignment. Do kids learn this kind of entitlement mentality at home? Where does it come from?

So you give one example and then use the plural term "kids."

And why do you think a mentality of putting something off comes from home?

Do you realize that teenagers do not listen to their parents?

And in college they don't have their parents looking over them.

I don't see how coddled and entitled leads to this example.

Just young and free.

Is she even considering agreeing to this? If so,why? That's not a rhetorical question. If the student had some sort of crisis that meant he/she couldn't function as a student it might be the right thing to do.

I had a grad student once who'd had several schizophrenic episodes in his life and had one in the middle of the semester when he was taking my class and was in a psych hospital for a while. When he was back we worked things out so he could catch up on his own time. I had another guy who was severely crippled and on crutches taking my class during a really bad winter when for some reason, the school didn't clear any ice from the walks leading to the building where I taught. He couldn't get into the building safely so we put him on hiatus and caught him up when the walks were clear again.

But I've had a couple others who just vanished for weeks with no explanation and showed up later wanting to "catch up" and pass the course. I don't think it's in those students' interests to learn that it's acceptable to be that irresponsible and I don't think it's fair to the others in the class who show up like they're supposed to.

Johnny rotten wrote:

Bingo!

NCLB and Race to the Bottom have placed all responsibility on teachers and administrators and left none for kids and parents. Because our jobs are tied to graduation rate and test scores we cannot hold kids as accountable as they deserve and as would make them more productive adults. Instead we have to coddle them so that our NCLB numbers rise.

And then you get them.

QFE

allow me to explain wrote:

If I can still get good grades on exams, why do I have to waste my time coming to your class and doing homework assignments? Isn't the point to master the material, not just shuffle paper around?

A legitimate question, and I think the answer can vary depending on the nature of the subject matter. In some subject areas, "mastery" cannot very effectively be measured by exam(s)--even well-constructed exams (there are plenty that aren't).

I remember taking Spanish in college. The professor told us we'd have to attend X hours in the language lab. In my smartass 18-year-old-in-his-second-sophomore-year way, I asked why: "I mean, virtue is its own reward, right? If we go to the lab, we'll get better grades on the exams, so why not just go by the exam grades?"

His response: If you want an A, you have to go to the lab.

I did want an A (having had enough experience with other grades, the year before), so I went to the lab. And...I learned more Spanish. I learned how to speak so that I might actually be understood by a native speaker. I "mastered" the material well enough that, after that single year of Spanish, I've been able to use the language professionally.

The professor did us (me, anyway) a favor: beyond getting us to where we could ace exams, he *educated* us in the material. And the only way that happened is because he required us to do stuff whose value I (at the time) couldn't see. In other words, he was an educator.

In my own subsequent career as a teacher and coach, that example stayed fresh in my mind. I was willing to require my students to do stuff that would help them learn. I always tried to explain *why* it would help them; but I required it, regardless.

wifeprof wrote:

Her latest: she's had a student that has not showed up to class since September 27 and he just emailed her today and said he wants to make up some of his assignment. Do kids learn this kind of entitlement mentality at home? Where does it come from?

I am a HS teacher, and I have students try the exact same thing. The problem is not isolated to just colleges. She has it made, though. Professors do not have to worry about principals who have to worry about bureaucrats telling them that they have to graduate 100% of all students, ...YET.

You have the answer... wrote:

Johnny rotten wrote:

Bingo!

NCLB and Race to the Bottom have placed all responsibility on teachers and administrators and left none for kids and parents. Because our jobs are tied to graduation rate and test scores we cannot hold kids as accountable as they deserve and as would make them more productive adults. Instead we have to coddle them so that our NCLB numbers rise.

And then you get them.

QFE

A lot of blame can go to George W. Bush and his "brilliant" No Kid Left Behind policy.

He does ask a legitimate question. I never had an attendance requirement and would have given decent grades, though not outstanding ones, to someone whose papers or exams showed mastery of the material even if they were often absent. But I always told classes that they should show up for class unless they had a good reason not to because things can happen in the interactions that go on during the classes that can enhance their knowledge of the subject. Some class members would ask questions about topics that aren't covered in the readings or they may have valid criticisms of things in the readings or have life experiences that related to class topics and so on. An absent student would miss all that.

I also believe that when people sign up for a class they're signing on for a certain kind of experience which involves being with a group. Absenting yourself from the class, even if you can master the material, deprives you and others in the class of some element of that sort of experience.

I should be clear that such situations come up quite often for her. The reason I brought it up last night was because I could see my wife was quite frustrated by it.