Complaints about NCAA Nationals @ Louisville’s course by coaches: Right or Wrong?

DI XC is such a joke. No one runs on any course that isn't pancake flat and manicured like a putting green. Just move the roads and be done with it.

Having ran it twice for the SE regional, the start does narrow fairly quickly and will reward those who get out well. Neither is it very challenging as seen with pre-nats and other meets held there so far. For spectators, it won't be as friendly as Terre Haute. Much more spread out, the finish is treeline till about the last 150 meters, so not many people will be able to clearly see it.

Golf courses are designed for old men with walking sticks in mind not fit young athletes.

The Louisville course will be just fine for Nationals. The Greater Louisville Classic and Pre-National meet had about 380 runners in a race which might be crowded-ish at the 400m mark - but NCAA's will only have about 250. No problem for the course and won't have any impact. And-my feeling is the course is VERY spectator friendly - you can pretty much go anywhere.

I like to say that it's the same course for everyone. But, if there are issues of lack of room (narrowing too quickly, etc) then that is a problem. Flat or hilly, if it's off roads it's XC.

There was some very mild congestion at the Louisville Classic, but nothing worth complaining about. For my money it's a much more interesting XC course than Terre Haute.

I think those meets will not be very indicative as NCAAs will be at least 5-6 times as competitive as they were.

I've heard that there have been many changes and improvements to make the course better able to handle the scale of NCAAs. However, my guess is that it still just isn't wide enough. Terre Haute was probably on average twice as wide, perhaps more? So it's going to be a squeeze.

se exp wrote:

I think those meets will not be very indicative as NCAAs will be at least 5-6 times as competitive as they were.

I've heard that there have been many changes and improvements to make the course better able to handle the scale of NCAAs. However, my guess is that it still just isn't wide enough. Terre Haute was probably on average twice as wide, perhaps more? So it's going to be a squeeze.

Concur here. While there may have been 350 in the race, in the NCAA meet almost all of the 250 are capable of being there at 400-600m and, because of the lost time if you do not get through quickly there will be problems.

To see why, consider the adidas Wisconsin Invite on the new Zimmer course. There were 46 and 49 teams in the two races and they were many more top teams there. Even with the much wider turns there were some problems with runners converging into the center at a point where the Zimmer course is probably 100m wide but where the Nationals course is going to make a turn with a much narrower channel. If any one of the top runners from the top teams gets knocked out there is changes the entire complexion of the race.

This race is a big spectacle and the climax of the entire sport/season. It should have a better venue that this. Many years ago there were not nearly so many competitive runners so some courses of old would work then that will not be very good now.

I understand Terre Haute isn't exactly one of the best towns in terms of entertainment or easy access, but their course is hands down the best in the country for a meet of NCAA XC Champs caliber. There is nothing wrong with having a championship in the same city year after year. However, I question the idiocy behind hosting the championships on a Monday for so long, instead of hosting it on a Saturday or Sunday. It's cool if you don't want a fan base whatsoever for the sport, but then just don't hold a championship event at all.

Agreed. The course is incredible at ISU. Especially for spectators. A reasonably fit person can see their runners about 15 times (for the men's 10K) by running straight to the back of the course and cutting straight across to the finish area two times.

riley stops wrote:

I understand Terre Haute isn't exactly one of the best towns in terms of entertainment or easy access, but their course is hands down the best in the country for a meet of NCAA XC Champs caliber. There is nothing wrong with having a championship in the same city year after year. However, I question the idiocy behind hosting the championships on a Monday for so long, instead of hosting it on a Saturday or Sunday. It's cool if you don't want a fan base whatsoever for the sport, but then just don't hold a championship event at all.

I actually liked the NCAA D1 race on Monday. In the past I have been able to take in the D3 race on Saturday and then make my way to Terre Haute on Monday for the D1 Event. Always enjoyed the "Weekend of Cross" and think maybe only the Wisconsin Course would be better than the Indianna State Course. The crew in Terre Haute really have done an excellent job over the years and Loiusville will be hard pressed to top that.

it's been my experience that most (so-called) top d-1 xc coaches are afraid of true XC courses. like another poster said, "they want pancake flat golf courses."

at the end of the starting straight-away, there's a bridge on the right, and a gulley to the left. it's called cross country. there's a few moderately rolling hills. they're nothing to cross country runners.

the course has some history to it, and louisville has a cool downtown sector. overall, it's a good course, and i think that the complaining coaches would be complaining if they had to park in a gravel parking lot, that wasn't freshly paved asphalt. they are the ones to complain about their offices not being vacuumed daily by the cleaning staff, and are probably the first in line at the staff meetings for the free coffee and bagels.

Been around, I am sorry that you are not that bright. I doubt that coaches are complaining about the course given the fact that it is flat. In fact, it is flatter than most any golf course that I have been on. The main complaint I have heard is the fairness. It narrows quickly and has potential to logjam. Seems pretty valid to me given this is the national championship.

riley stops wrote:

I understand Terre Haute isn't exactly one of the best towns in terms of entertainment or easy access, but their course is hands down the best in the country for a meet of NCAA XC Champs caliber. There is nothing wrong with having a championship in the same city year after year. However, I question the idiocy behind hosting the championships on a Monday for so long, instead of hosting it on a Saturday or Sunday. It's cool if you don't want a fan base whatsoever for the sport, but then just don't hold a championship event at all.

I have not heard anyone that has run the Zimmer/Wisconsin course say that the Terre Haute course is better. A number equate them (i.e., they are equal in quality) while probably a majority think that the new Zimmer course is better.

I just got a look at the aerial view of the Louisville course and I am rather surprised. The start looks relatively 'narrow'; it must be adequate or it would not have passed muster; it must also be oriented differently than on the map to give equal distance to the gap in the trees and over the drainage. At a third of a kilo it has to go through some trees and it looks like the gap there for the shortest route could be very small for that early in the race. It is then curving to the right ending with a sharp curve to the right and then a U-turn to the left. It makes two other turns greater than 90 degrees. In all there are four 180-degree turns and twenty more places where the course turns by 90 degrees over a short interval. Hopefully many of these will be gradual bends like at Zimmer and not too abrupt with trees right on the turn.

When was the last time you ran a Division 1 XC race? Maybe some of the big meets are groomed up nicely but not all cross courses are run that way.

Ask the guys that had to go up (for the third time) the rise of 90 feet on the last loop at the Zimmer/Wisconsin course. See if they think that course is flat. It does not have Mt SAC-type hills but does that matter.

The European notion of an appropriate cross country course do not have the main event -- the team race -- as the focus. In a team race every single one of the top 5-6 runners matter. Taking one of those out because they go down on the course does not make for a good competition, it makes it a crap shoot.

This year's course is flat (and fast except for its potentially problematic turns) but Indiana State is definitely not flat, even though it is not primarily a 'hilly' (big hills) course.

My complaint isn't its "difficulty" for the runners as much as it mutes the excitement of the race for the audience (yes, this is very important if we want our sport to matter). You see the start, the 3k and the finish. That's about it. Terrible idea to host it there

Quit already. The Louisville course will be just fine and spectators will be happy and the workers will do a great job.

Don't try to tell me that almost all of the 250 are capable of being there at the 400m mark - that's BS. The best teams are WAY better than the middle and bad teams, and the middle teams are WAY better than the bad teams. And all the middle to bad teams have maybe a #1 runner or at most a #2 that will even sniff the front after just 30-45 seconds.

There will be a nice string of competitors at 400m just like any other major meet with 250 runners.

God, what a bunch of p***ies. I'm glad I earned my All-America back when runners were better and tougher.

wowzers wrote:You see the start, the 3k and the finish. That's about it. Terrible idea to host it there

This.