Why do women pace the 800m so terribly?

is it possible she wants competitors who don't have her speed to go out faster than they could/should? Regardless of her reason it is a good idea to take chances once in a while especially early in the season.

havefun wrote:

exactly... but really it depends on the type of runner you are i suppose. But i guarantee you most PR's are set on uneven splits. Now yes I know there are people like Wottle who have won big races from even splitting, but i've also seen rudisha set a world record after going out in about a 48.

Symmonds regularly beats people who are vastly more talented than he is primarily because he runs smarter than they do - closer to even splits.

Robby Andrews beats Charles Jock who is vastly more talented than he is by running smarter than Jock does - closer to even splits (and as an added bonus, always gets props for a devastating kick when he is slowing down during the kick!)

And Rudisha would utterly smash the world record if he had the sense to go out in 50 flat because he would bring it home in another 50 flat.

Sorry, but these are simply FACTS. Irrefutable facts.

This assertion is not a generalization, but something I've noticed for years. It works its way all the way down to the HS level. I often see 2:20 runners going out in 30 - 31 or 2:00 runners going out in 26 - 27.

But, I see few 1:50 male runners going out faster than 25.5 and few male 2:00 runners going out faster than 28.

I haven't figured out why.

American women seem to always run 2:00 also, no matter the condtions or comp they stay about the same. The races aren't that entertaining that way. Montano took upon herself to try something new.

An expert wrote:

Mood swings are to blame.

Men can run an entire 800 meters on pure hate.

Women can get about 300 meters on pure hate, then they cry and wimper for 200 meters, the next 200 meters is filled with joy and giddy happiness, and then a dramatic flip to intense seething hatred for the final 100 meters.

10/10

Nope they are just opinions and most likely wrong ones at that. Running the first 200ms faster than average is the optimal way to run 800ms.Now is 55 (or low 49s for a 1:44 guy) too fast for a 1:57 run? Yes but that doesn't mean going out in 58(or 51) is the right move. Something like 56.5-57 would be ideal but you have to adapt to the race. Running even splits is easy to say after the event. You can't look at a 1:45 800m and say running 52/53 is optimal if the leaders went through 400ms in 54s. In general in fast races you can hang back and pick people off. However if you go to the back and the race is slow, you can run into all sorts of trouble.

Well there is always this wrote:

Sorry, but these are simply FACTS. Irrefutable facts.

Helluva Runner wrote:

Well there is always this wrote:

Because there are no magical meters. Each and every one of the 800 meters counts just the same. There is absolutely no logic to suggest that there is some Peter Pan Pixy dust magical advantage to be gained by running the 2nd 200m in 24 and the last in 28. The same person could run them both in 25.5.

Please see Wottle, Dave.

Dont be an idiot. Dave Wottle did not run his PR off of even splits, but he did win the olympics off of it. Montano did not care about the competition, she was going for time.

Nick Symmonds regularly beats runners vastly more talented than himself by running smarter than them - running closer to even splits.

Robby Andrews beats Charles Jock who is vastly more talented than him by running smarter than him - running closer to even splits (and as an added bonus gets praised for having an amazing kick even while he is slowing down on the last 200!).

Rudisha would absolutely smash the world record if he would just have the sense to go out in 50 because he would then be able to close in 50.

Sorry, but these are FACTS. Irrefutable facts!

How can a prediction or a projection be a fact?

You are an idiot. That's a fact.

You will have an idiotic reponse to this post. That is highly likely but it is not a fact.

If you take a really close look at pacing in the 800m, you'll notice that many of the great runs were at very reasonable early splits.

In my observation over the years, we look at the 400m as the key split, but often, the runner has already substantially slowed down at or just past 200m.

Where runners often kill any chances at a good time is in the first 150m. And there have been plenty of good examples of runners holding back early in big races.

We also often take the split of the leading runner and not the runner who won the race.

Wottle 1972 in Munich

Ovett 1980 in Moscow

Ereng 1988 in Seoul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVDcZTHOQug

(Cruz is clearly the most talented, but Ereng is the smartest)

Tanui 1992 in Barcelona

Borzakovskiy 2004 in Athens

all ran very even splits

Interestingly, in Seoul in 1988, the guy in last pace at 200m in every race from 800m - 5000m won the gold.

Nobody notices though because everyone is watching the leader. Last year's NCAAs, and the last 4 years' US Championships were all won by somewhat at or near the back at the 200m mark.

I'm always talking about men when this topic comes up because most women have not figured out this strategy yet.

One thing about running this way is you need a ton of confidence. It is easy to get pumped up and go racing out from the gun, slowly dieing the last lap, but it is very mentally tough to be behind the leader by 20m and have the confidence to slowly work your up through the pack.

Yes! ^ Finally we hear from someone who gets it.

48/55 is 1:43 not 1:45 and Montano stated that she thought she would close better then what she actually did in her season opener. The interview afterwards she stated she was comfortably with her opener and that it was an easy fix for her to correct the problem she experience in her last 100m.

It would appear Montano wanted a sub 1:57 as an opener in prelude to much bigger things to come this outdoor season. So 55 was her target which she hit now she must work on her last 125 or 100m!

Real question is will Montano start using blocks for the 800?

isn't she a 400/800 runner? and she is training to run against other 800 runners with 52 400m speed... what would be the point in going out in 59?

if a male 400/800 runner goes 1:45 it would likely be 50/55 so a 5 sec differential.

in a race nearly 1/8th longer duration (~1:57+) we might expect something closer to 6sec differential. 55++/61++

Ngeny went out in ~1:03/1:09 for the 500m splits in the 1000m record. sometimes you have to run fast while you can.

VIPAM wrote:

48/55 is 1:43 not 1:45 and Montano stated that she thought she would close better then what she actually did in her season opener. The interview afterwards she stated she was comfortably with her opener and that it was an easy fix for her to correct the problem she experience in her last 100m.

It would appear Montano wanted a sub 1:57 as an opener in prelude to much bigger things to come this outdoor season. So 55 was her target which she hit now she must work on her last 125 or 100m!

It is true that 400m runners who move up often run better, at the start, if they go out faster. They are specifically trained to run faster and don't know how to pick up the pace in the middle of an 800m. This is a skill that must be practiced to learn. I've seen many 800m runners who run all their workouts by going out fast and dying and run all their races the same way. They can't understand why they can't kick. Andrews and Symmonds have got the right idea. As you get faster during the year, keep going out a little faster - but always leave something for a kick if you can and let the others wreck themselves early by sprinting the first 150m.

Championship racing is different than fast racing.

Championships, in general are jogs with sprint finishes so it doesn't matter where you are in the first half of the race.

World records are not set by those who are "somewhat or near the back" early on.

Women, in general, are not nearly as cowardly as men in championship racing and thus run fast more often (US Champs 2011 prime example).

For every male you congratulate for winning in a pathetic time, there are 7-11 (or more) who wasted the race by being both pathetically slow, and getting their ass kicked.

This is why coaching women is often harder because you actually need to coach instead of just sitting back waiting for everyone to sprint in every men's race.

VO2 wrote:

...Championships, in general are jogs with sprint finishes so it doesn't matter where you are in the first half of the race...

Seriously, do you?

Championship 800s are NOT tactical affairs. The tactical racing for championships kicks in at 1500m.

From 1976 through 2008 the Olympic Games 1500m winning time has averaged about 5.5 seconds slower than the year's fastest time. That is tactical racing.

From 1976 through 2008 the Olympic Games 800m winning time has averaged about 1.1 seconds slower than the year's fastest time. That is NOT tactical racing.

Get a friggin clue before posting.

VO2 wrote:

Championship racing is different than fast racing.

Championships, in general are jogs with sprint finishes so it doesn't matter where you are in the first half of the race.

World records are not set by those who are "somewhat or near the back" early on.

Women, in general, are not nearly as cowardly as men in championship racing and thus run fast more often (US Champs 2011 prime example).

For every male you congratulate for winning in a pathetic time, there are 7-11 (or more) who wasted the race by being both pathetically slow, and getting their ass kicked.

This is why coaching women is often harder because you actually need to coach instead of just sitting back waiting for everyone to sprint in every men's race.

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Obviously VO2 has not studied 800m running for long. And obviously VO2 did not watch the video above where Cruz and Barbosa raced themselves into the ground during the first 200m, allowing Aouita and Ereng to take control over the last 200m (albeit, it is amazing how Cruz was able to hold onto the Silver and was obviously physically the best in the race)

Australia and Atlanta were also fast Olympic races, but only in Montreal did the early leader go on to win the race.

Its old CW that girls/women of all ages go out too fast more than guys. I've had 40 yrs of watching it happen. Dunno why...they just do

48/55 gives you a 1:43, and no those are not equivalent conversions because you are going by numbers rather than percentages, its more like a guy going 49/54 to hit 1:43 which is not too far off of the ideal 50/53 you would expect.