Summer XC Base

FLCoach wrote:

I bet you think you are invincible...

You need mentoring and an open mind...

You need to understand life much more...

you need to know what strengths and weaknesses mean...

You need to grow up, literally and the other...

You need to understand many people know more than you...

You should contact a high level coach with results and see what they say...Matt Dixon...

10;40 is crap for 60-70 miles...There must be no understanding of quality...not just in workouts, but in form, and in your closed mind...there is no quality in your closed mind...

I would love to coach you though...if you would become coachable...move to FL

Creepy. Just saying.

My opinion of this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUDo9kJb2NE

Ok, he's not going to listen to anybody who is telling him that his training and times don't correlate. This kid probably lives in a place where his times will win races.

Moral of the story is, If you are satisfied with your slow times and working incredibly hard to get them, then do what this kid does. If you want to get faster, stronger, and more competitive, then you may want to take some advice. Just trying to spare you the suffering at the hands of.. yourself.

Sincerely,

A guy who ran 5:00 for a mile as a freshman in hs and worked it down to 4:14. 40-50 miles a week with 2-3 quality days. Also, puberty.

Hey Neil...

Is it the wanting to coach him part?

If so, I feel sorry for your understanding of value...but it is just like the predictable majority...

Not going to bash your training or call you terrible like a lot of the people here, but I will critique it a bit.

First off, you should be proud that you'e putting in that much work. Even if you don;t become an Olympian, being a hard worker is something that wil help you in all facets of life.

Secondly, as a not not very talented runner who has worked my tail off to become decent (still nothing spectacular...yet) at the D1 level, I understand the urge to up the miles and say you're going to do all of this stuff over the summer. Work hard and you'll see the results.

Here's my critique: It is MUCH easier to say you are going to run this much than to actually do it. Running 70 mpw and running 100 mpw are very different. I know. I have averaged 90 mpw for a couple weeks in a row, and trust me when I tell you that the toll the mileage takes on your body as far as just being fatigued is MUCH greater than at 70 or even 80 mpw. At least that was my experience. Not to discourage you from doing it--I definitely think it is worth it--but 100 mpw sounds a lot easier than it is.

Next, don't get hung up on mileage. Trying to hit a certain number for a single week is an easy way to get hurt. Remember: averaging 80 mpw for 10 weeks is better than doing 80, 90, 100, then getting injured and hobbling along at 30 mpw for the next 7 weeks.

So for you I would recommend trying to AVERAGE 75 a week all summer. Based off what you said that seems like it will be doable. Double every day but Sunday (or whenever your long run is). Take days off when you need them (~1 every 3 weeks, but if you need more don't worry about missing a day or so). Do workouts, but nothing too strenuous. Like other people said, look up Summer of Malmo--it'll give you a lot of insight into workouts. You want to come into the Fall fresh, not tired.

Good luck

college runner - thanks alot for the input. I do imagine the 100mpw being pretty fatiguing, as 70 was naturally already alot. I did balance my running with a full course schedule (which was pretty demanding, what with AP classes and post secondary), so I am optimistic that in the summer when I can truly focus soley on running 100mpw may be possible. Theres only one thing you said that I'm not sure about: "~1 day off every 3weeks". Have you found that works for you very well to ward off injury? I'm just wondering because this winter I ran about 45 days in a row, then took 2 days off because I was concerned with a hurting foot, then ran 55 days and took another day off, worried about a achilles issue. So generally my experience has been if something is bothering me, just run right through it (well lower intensity of course), and by a week it should be gone. If that did not happen then yes I would consider a day totally off. I guess 1 day off every 3 weeks seems like a lot when I'm thinking of averaging 75mpw all summer. Doesn't it seem like, hypothetically at least, just a short and easy 4 miles, or even 4 in the morning, 4 in the evening, would enhance recovery and be better than just a day off? I guess it would depend who you are; I'm just wondering exactly what experiences led you to the 1day/3weeks ratio. Any elaborations would be appreciated.

I look at training in blocks--for me I break it up into 4 weeks blocks. Every 3rd/4th week for me is a "down" week, meaning I drop the miles to let my legs recover from the work I have put in. You get better recovering, not running, so these are necessary for improving. Some people do every other week, some every 3rd week, I do every 4th week. Whatever works for you. These down weeks also help a ton mentally, I have found. At this stage in my life, running what seem to be endless 100 mile weeks would kill me. Usually when I am running high mileage, by the third week I am getting pretty worn down, and so knowing I have a down week coming up allows me to finish off that week strong and look forward to the next. After coming off my down week I feel refreshed and ready to tackle another 3 weeks of solid mileage. Again, different strokes for different folks--this works for me, something else might work for you.

As for the days off it is really up to you. I tend to take a day off once every 4 weeks, and that week ends up being my down week. These days off are either the result of something hurting and me not wanting to risk getting injured, or just having a day where I am tired as hell and do not want to run at all. If you get to the 4th week in your training and feel fine, definitely don't feel like you need to take a day off, just make sure to drop the mileage that week. Don't feel like you need to take days off if you feel fine, but don't be afraid to if you desperately want one/feel like you need one.

college runner is offering you some good stuff here. Kudos to you for having the desire & maturity to motivate yourself to train like a champion.

Couple of points:

-Like CR said, do not get hung up on the mileage. If you get to 100, great, but if the wheels start to get wobbly, be smart & back off. Running through pain is stupid. Heed pain, listen to your body.

-I like the idea of strengthening exercises. Coach Jay Johnson has an excellent video series you may wanna check out:

http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=23764&PageNum=1

This stuff is much better than getting in the weight room & benching & curling, IMHO

- take care of your body. Rest, hydrate, ice bath, massage, etc. Be hyper sensitive to signs of imminent injury warnings..

- take a real interest in biomechanics & form, if you don't already. Have a gait analysis done - some running shoe stores & others do for free. Consider a tranisitional minimalist shoe.

- you mentioned trail running. I like that idea, provided you're not doing a lot of technical root/rock climbing every time out

- if in doubt or if(when) you get that dead legs feeling, take it easy for a day or 2. You can still maybe run the distance, but force yourself to relax the pace. WEhen the Kenyans run easy, they run really easy..

- your plan has plenty of tempo/threshold stuff - maybe even too much. Run how you feel; don't force it. Your pace will gradually drop as you get stronger. Be patient - you have lots of time.

- strides on grass are great for an easy day every week. Find a nice grassy field & do them barefoot. Don't run as an all out sprint, just fast, light & relaxed - but not max effort.

Thanks for the advice, Maurice.

On another note, however, as far as doubling goes I was wondering what people thought was more physiologically beneficial during the base season. If I have 15 miles one day, should I do 7 in the AM and 8 in the PM, or 11 in the AM and 4 in the PM? I had planned on taking the Lydiard approach where long runs are very important, and so by my peak training I'd have three runs on separate days all in excess of 90min, say 18miles, 15miles, 14miles, or something like that. On those days I planned on doubling only to a maximum of 4 or so; on the other days I planned on having a general approach of 8-6 or so. Would I be better off on simply running roughly an hour (~8) every day, twice a day, with one long run approaching 2hrs on sunday? Or would the balanced approach of focusing more on runs over 90min be better? I think this thread already touched on this topic, but I was looking for some more in depth responses, if that would be possible.

I know it's been said before, but that 10:40 is awful for your mileage. I'm a D1 cross country and track runner. In high school my 5k was 16:50 as a junior and we did 30mpw in-season for cross country and barely 20mpw during the summer. I didn't even run track.

Then when I did do track my mile was 4:24 and my 2mile was 9:32 on 35 mpw.

Then in college my freshman year I did 50mpw in cross country and my 8k was 26:30.

Long story short, unless you're doing a marathon or half-marathon (MAYBE the 10k), stay away from 100 mile weeks. Especially in high school. What others have said is true: you really don't know anything until college. You may think you do, but you don't.

This thread is interesting for me.

I probably have a lot less insight than some of the others here, but I'll share my story with you.

My Junior year of high school I was a Junior Varsity wrestler. By my senior year I was good--one match from going to states. Good enough to make a d3 college team, after not even being able to make a high school team the year before. On only one year of HARD work. Ended up being an above average d3 wrestler after 2 more years of hard until I destroyed my shoulder. Not as impressive as lots of people here. Oh well.

Now, here's where our stories differ. Wrestling is a sport of cross training. I ran 30 miles a week, lifted 12 hours a week, participated fully in 3 different off season wrestling programs, and every single day badgered my teammates to wrestle with me before or after classes. (My school didn't suffer at all. I'm a high genius, so I don't need to do anything to be a straight A student other than half-pay attention in class show up for tests. I still started college as a junior from AP testing)

A teenage body simply can't take the pounding of the same repetitive motion over and over and over again. Even if it makes you faster in 1-2 years, it won't make you faster in 4-5 years. If you're looking to build a foundation for future athletic success you want to cross train until you are 18-20.

Run lots, sure. But if you (as college runner suggested) run 70-80 miles a week you'll have the energy to cross train. Sure you'll miss out on 20 miles/week of running, but you'll gain a LOT more if you:

LIFT. Learning to lift properly will give you a HUGE leg up. especially once you hit college and everyone has to re-learn how to do everything properly. You literally gain an entire year of training advantage just from knowing how to lift properly when you start college. I was lucky enough to have my high school's track coach (ex olympic haurdler) mentor me in the weight room.

Do fun sports where running is part of the sport. Go trail running, play soccer, play basketball, whatever floats your boat.

Bike

Gain dynamic flexibility

focus on technique

[quote]God_Is_Good wrote:

In high school my 5k was 16:50 as a junior and we did 30mpw in-season for cross country and barely 20mpw during the summer.

Did everyone in your high school run 16:50 off of 30mpw? And if so, did you guys cut the team?

I also know a guy who runs distressingly well off of low mileage. He ran a 4:41 in 8th grade off of no more than 25mpw. Problem is, he ran a 4:42 in 9th grade, and now as a junior just barely went sub4:25. I also know a kid who went something like 5:08 in middle school, and thanks to a progression of training 50-70mpw he's looking to run 9:30's this year, and likely beat the aforementioned kid.

My point is, thats great that you ran so well off of so little. Problem is, not everyone can run that well off of so little, really very few can. So just because you could do that does not mean that everyone else can. It also does not necessarily mean that you couldn't have ran better if you would have done more.

Also, why is it that 10:40 in the base phase with no fast-workouts on a 70mile week for a 14-year old is so bad? I don't mean to call myself exceptional; but I'd like to make the point that I may run 10:00 this year, as a Freshman age, and to me that's just not very bad. If I improved 20sec a year I'd be down to 9:00 by senior year. I'd call that exceptional. Even if i only dropped 10sec a year, I'd be down to 9:30, and that's hardly a bad thing. I don't mean to whine on and on about how I think I'm better or that my training is working more than my times indicate; I simply don't think people are seeing the full picture in how they judge my training vs performance.

How do you know that you wouldn't do better off lower milage?

also, you won't improve 20 seconds a year if you are already running 80 mpw.

You've got me there; I don't *know* for sure. I know that I ran a 5:39 mile at the end of my first XC season off of no summer work; that winter i got up to 30-40mpw and ran a 5:21. Over the summer I got up to 50mpw, with alot of 45's; ended up taking my 5k time from 21:40 to 18:11; my mile from 5:21 to 4:59. Was injured the next track season; but after hitting mostly 50's this summer I ran a 17:32 and a 4:49. I know last year the first (and only) track meet I ran i did the 3200m in something really awful, like 11:40. This year in indoor i debuted at 10:40. So there's that personal experience. Otherwise, I've read a fair amount of writing on training, and simply observed that, even though Lagat may only run peak weeks of 80 and Solinsky might do 140, the overwhelming trend is that the more one runs, the faster one is. (or, rather, the faster one is, the more one runs). So i have my reasons for supporting high mileage, as i'm sure you have yours for supporting low mileage. So really the point is that, if I run 80-100mpw this summer and end up going sub-16 in the 5k, you'll have to be kept up at night knowing that someone somewhere is succeeding on very high mileage. If I run that much and get injured, or do awful; than of course you can rest assured knowing that some adolescent somewhere came to the painful conclusion that he could've ran faster on lower mileage.

I agree with the diminishing returns thing, it is a law; but what about the difference between 15 and 18 years of age? Although its an individual thing that one shouldn't really count on, I think physical maturity could account for a lot of the gains.

I would argue that you are wrong in saying you are a natural distance runner, you are a mid-distance guy based on the times youve given, I run a 16:40 5k and a 4:50 mile, that is more what I would expect to see if you are a distance runner, I have a good friend with comparable times to yours who is a sub 2:00 800 guy, you should try focusing on the mile and try the 800

this kid is an idiot...if he thinks he is actually going to do 100 miles a week in the summer he is out of his mind...its one thing to say it, its another thing to do it...this year i came off my freshman cross country season of 60 a week during the season and only 40 a week before and ran a 16:58...i was thinking of putting in like 60-70 during the winter but my body and schedule was more compatible with 50...the first meet of the track season 2:10, 4:51, 10:50 triple. my potential is in the 2 but my coach forces me to do all three to make me tougher for some reason...all I'm saying is that if you stay healthy and do your work outs it will be more beneficial than killing yourself. you will burn out on that milage. you will have no life on that mileage. you will regret that mileage.

To answer your question in regard to doubling, I think it's generally better to go with variety in the distance & length of your workouts. So, instead of running 8 in the AM & 7 in the PM, 11 & 4 is more likely to benefit you.

And I wouldn't do any lifting. GSM work definitely, but you'll do just fine with body weight exercises after a run. Maybe do some medicine ball stuff, but almost all lifting - especially in HS - is coached to build mass & muscle, which is somewhat counter productive to running a fast XC 5k.

Instead of the tempo runs you have planned, you may wanna occasionally substitute a hilly run where you push the pace on the hills a bit, or the barefoot striders on grass I mentioned.

I'm not a dietician or nutritionist, but with your need for recovery, you may wanna read up on the best diet to help you with that. There are some ultra dudes who are very into the veggan/plant protein thing & who avoid all meat. I've never done that, but intend to give it a try. There's an awful lot of garbage in the processed meat products we typically consume. Organic veggies & fruits would likely do a lot for your system & make your adaptation more successful & also speed recovery.