Birth Control and Personal Responsibility

"The Obama administration would like nothing more than to get ALL private, non-governmental institutions OUT of health care. Then the federal government can completely fill that role."

You need to learn something. First, Obama is just a tepid moderate. He wants some sort of market-friendly compromise. His views are little different from Romney's. If only we had some actual socialists around instead of these tepid Wall Street friendly, "godforbid we ever offend anyone" liberals. We have no Left in this country apart from a few isolated people like Sanders and Kucinich.

Second, WTF are you talking about? When you talk about "health care" are you talking about hospitals and physicians, or insurance companies? Someone please, please explain to me why health care is better if we get our insurance from for-profit entities? Most of the criticism I hear of single payer is applicable to all kinds of insurance. At least single payer would be portable, not job dependant, and cheaper.

Conservatives live in some bizarreo world where colleges "indoctrinate" people but their evangelical churches and parishoners, apparently arrive at doctrines through unbiased curious inquiry and just happened to arrive at crazy conclusions because that is where the evidence leads. A world where the elected government is to be feared, but corporations unfettered by rules are our bestest buddy.

single best quote in LR history. thank you sir...well done... bravo!!

Hot to Trotsky wrote:

Conservatives live in some bizarreo world where colleges "indoctrinate" people but their evangelical churches and parishoners, apparently arrive at doctrines through unbiased curious inquiry and just happened to arrive at crazy conclusions because that is where the evidence leads. A world where the elected government is to be feared, but corporations unfettered by rules are our bestest buddy.

OK, i think it goes like this.

If birth control is free for all, what does society owe a person who has a child they can't afford?

Loved how Santorum said, basically "Liberal colleges shouldn't be indoctrinating your kids - you should be!". Well, Rick, what if you are...I don't know...wrong? I mean, who am I going to trust on evolution, the physics of the universe, etc. Rick Santorum and/or some crazy preacher, or, you know, scientists?

This conservative populism stuff is just reverse elitism that says nobody could possibly know more than me and that only certain people count as Americans. What is more arrogant than thinking you know more empirical facts about the world via your church than a PhD in science? What is more arrogant than thinking you have daily bull sessions with the creator of the universe and everytime you have a warm fuzzy feeling in your stomach, that is the Supreme Being taking an active interest in your most banal decision (with 5 billion other people on the planet apparently untouched by this divine channeling). What is more arrogant than thinking all this other nonsense that people learn from their parents in a hundred foreign countries is just stupid, but the nonsense you learned just happens to be true.

Free moneys, just for havin childruns

from the IRS' own website on the child tax credit

"Additional Child Tax Credit - If the amount of your Child Tax Credit is greater than the amount of income tax you owe, you may be able to claim the Additional Child Tax Credit."

It's fairly simple. Unwanted children grow up to be bitter, nasty, repressed, stupid adults with no future and no prospect of getting laid or loved. In short, they grow up to be Republicans.

to the OP's original point wrote:

OK, i think it goes like this.

If birth control is free for all, what does society owe a person who has a child they can't afford?

I think it's more about helping the child, but it unfortunately doesn't work out that way.

I think if we just completely subsidized birth control for anyone that wants it (go beyond making insurance companies pay and just have the government pay [which would also conveniently circumvent the religious argument]), we may save a lot of money that would have gone to welfare for unplanned kids or money for group homes and foster homes.

At the very least I don't think it would be a bad experiment; just make BC free for a couple years and see what happens to the birth rate.

gimme my money wrote:

Free moneys, just for havin childruns

from the IRS' own website on the child tax credit

"Additional Child Tax Credit - If the amount of your Child Tax Credit is greater than the amount of income tax you owe, you may be able to claim the Additional Child Tax Credit."

You better not look at the USDA's farm subsidy website. You might have a heart attack. Well, probably not because none of those welfare recipients are likely to be black and most are Republican so it, bu definition, isn't welfare.

English major?

leftist seminary wrote:

English major?

Half-blind multitasker.

titfortat in order wrote:

For the purposes of this thread, let's assume that HHS gets its way and birth control is available to all women free of charge.

Would it not be reasonable to at this point reexamine child tax credits and the significant increases in the earned income tax credit depending on the number of children one has?

I mean, if birth control is available to everyone for no cost, wouldn't it follow that those who have children are making a conscious choice to do so and should plan ahead to make sure they can live with the consequences of that choice without government support?

worst.....argument......ever.

W.A.E. wrote:worst.....argument......ever.

And, end of thread. This is the only reasonable response to such a poorly framed question.

unknown poster wrote:

W.A.E. wrote:worst.....argument......ever.

And, end of thread. This is the only reasonable response to such a poorly framed question.

Yes, very poorly framed.

With no impediments, even a nominal monthly copay, to birth control, should those that continue to act irresponsibly and have children they do not want/can not afford be held in the least bit responsible for their personal choices?

Why on earth would we want to discuss people dealing with the consequences of their own personal decisions...

formidable doer of the nasty wrote:

It's fairly simple. Unwanted children grow up to be bitter, nasty, repressed, stupid adults with no future and no prospect of getting laid or loved. In short, they grow up to be Republicans.

This makes zero sense. I thought all the rich people who had all the entitled children were Republicans? Now, you are saying it is all the people who don't have children??

I am Republican. From a large family - not rich, but my parents provided for us. We all worked from early ages. Education was strongly encouraged. We each earned graduate degrees and 5 of the 6 of us are in the top 1-5% of wage earners in the country. (One of my brothers passed away, but was perhaps the most financially successful of all of us). No one has been divorced and between the 6 of us, we have produced 14 children. Those children are also productive successful citizens. If that describes a "Republican", I have no problem with the description. We work, take care of our own families, volunteer in the community, take part in the political process, and pay substantial taxes.

Economically it's in our best interest to have an expanding population. So in an instance where everyone has access to birth control those who actually choose to have children should be rewarded.

Oh "Education was strongly encouraged" and "We each earned graduate degrees.." What a bunch of SNOBS.

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formidable doer of the nasty wrote:

It's fairly simple. Unwanted children grow up to be bitter, nasty, repressed, stupid adults with no future and no prospect of getting laid or loved. In short, they grow up to be Republicans.

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This makes zero sense. I thought all the rich people who had all the entitled children were Republicans? Now, you are saying it is all the people who don't have children??

I am Republican. From a large family - not rich, but my parents provided for us. We all worked from early ages. Education was strongly encouraged. We each earned graduate degrees and 5 of the 6 of us are in the top 1-5% of wage earners in the country. (One of my brothers passed away, but was perhaps the most financially successful of all of us). No one has been divorced and between the 6 of us, we have produced 14 children. Those children are also productive successful citizens. If that describes a "Republican", I have no problem with the description. We work, take care of our own families, volunteer in the community, take part in the political process, and pay substantial taxes.

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First step: Get it through that thick skull of yours that people don't choose to have children because of exceedingly small tax benefits.

Second step: Make the slight inference from this fact to the idea that the question is poorly framed.

Hope that helps.

unknown poster wrote:

First step: Get it through that thick skull of yours that people don't choose to have children because of exceedingly small tax benefits.

Second step: Make the slight inference from this fact to the idea that the question is poorly framed.

Hope that helps.

I never read anywhere in this thread that people were alleged to have children for a tax break. The question was should we continue to give them a tax break. There is a difference.

In any case are you honestly saying that the implicit support of the government for a person when they make mistakes doesn't make them more careless?

People don't make decisions based on "implicit support from the government." That's exactly what I am saying. When was the last time you made a decision based on "the implicit support of the government."

While you are answering that, also answer why the hell I am even posting on this thread.