Renato Canova - Arthur Lydiard Coaches Roundtable

That's an interesting way to define "best aerobic pace". Did you make it up yourself? Or do you have a Lydiard reference that defines "best aerobic pace" like you have? Why isn't "best aerobic pace" for aerobic distances near race pace?"Run to the Top", 1962, page 72, gives a weekly marathon conditioning schedule, similar to the one I posted before. 4 days out of 7 are "quarter-effort". "Quarter-effort" is supposed to be easy, and is considerably less effort than race-pace, or a time-trial at 3/4 effort.Same page, "We follow a long or hard session with a short or easy one to give the body a chance to recover and consolidate the condition run into it."How can a "short or easy" day reasonably be considered "best aerobic pace"? How can 10 miles at "half-effort" and 10 miles at "three quarter-effort" both be "best aerobic pace"?

Joe maggio wrote:

Where is the Lydiard reference that the best aerobic pace can't be done

everyday ? Lydiard best aerobic pace is the pace your body can handle with a 'train, don't strain', can be done everyday. It's not an obligation but must be done everyday since he says that on that pace the aerobic improve is quickly. Lydiard best aerobic pace It's not a myth, it's a Lydiard open possibility.

In the "Lydiard Imitations" thread, Renato said he trained 56 Italian juniors. His training is not just for the top East Africans. Renato's training methods are suitable, even for average runners, regardless of what you think Renato may have said.Are you arguing that everyone should do something like Lydiard, until they qualify to be trained by Renato?"Run to the Top", 1962, page 42:"The key to my conditioning training is one hundred miles a week. ... When you can run a hundred miles a week comfortably, the progressive subsequent improvement is not secured by running greater distances but by aiming to run the same distance a week, faster."There is still some differences between Lydiard and Canova, but it is a mistake to say that Lydiard's paces remain slow and easy as the athlete progresses.

rekrunner wrote:Elephant in the room? Canova's training is suitable for everyone. There is no reason to think you are at increased risk of getting injured/burned out, so long as you respect certain principles.

Joe maggio wrote:Reference ? Renato said the opposite. He says isn't able to train the average runner.

rekrunner wrote:

In the first case, Lydiard says in one of his books, regarding 100 mpw, something like "when you can run 100mpw, don't run more, but run them faster". Lydiard also increased the intensity of the easy runs, as the athlete progresses. Maybe Canova's paces end up faster, but it seems a common mistake to think that all of Lydiard's "aerobic" mileage remains slow and easy as the athlete progresses over the years.

Joe maggio wrote:

Reference ? In fact Canova increases the intensity but the volume as well. Canova says speed and volume, faster and longer.

rekrunner wrote:

"Run to the Top", 1962, page 72, gives a weekly marathon conditioning schedule, similar to the one I posted before. 4 days out of 7 are "quarter-effort". "Quarter-effort" is supposed to be easy, and is considerably less effort than race-pace, or a time-trial at 3/4 effort.

I don't buy this one. It doesn't answer the question. I repeat: Reference the best aerobic pace can't be everyday ?

The quote doesn't prescribe the frequency of best aerobic pace.

It´s optional, can be 1-2-3-4-5-6 per week or everyday. Only the weekly long one it´s not the best aerobic pace.

The quote let us know that by option 4 days out of 7 are "quarter-effort". One schedule, one single schedule, might be one case of study, is not the core of training method, is one single case.

Question remains the same. Reference the best aerobic pace can't be everyday during the aerobic block ? You don't get it yet. In so many Lydiard writes you can't find something that straight interdicts the best aerobic pace everyday during the aerobic conditioning.

He doesn't say do it everyday, but he doesn't interdicts everyday.

Reference, site address?

Canova 56 juniors training program is not the same programme that he trains world-class africans.

Besides Canova said on this forum that actually he is not competent to train average runners no more.

Question and reference ask is not about Lydiard pace. Question is about your comment on Canova pace. Canova doesn't faster the pace when the runner got the optimal volume. Canova training is faster the pace as well as run more mileage volume. the importance of higher the volume and speed up the pace of aerobic runs are both the same interest.

Again you don't get the reference that Canova just speed up the pace, but i know and he did post that mileage is as important as pace. He says "longer and faster". You miss the point when you relate Canova with Lydiard. Lydiard says that when we rech the 100miles, progressively faster the pace on that same 100miles. Canova says that ther's no mileage limit, and mileage is as important as the pace speed. Both might progress together, side by side, and is useless progress one without the other.

Thank you so much Renato for these posts, your passion for coaching has really inspared me to become a coach,I am still an athlete ,but next year I will apply to study about coaching, love every of your posts and your coaching in general, keep it up!!!

Best aerobic pace everyday is not an option. It is expressly rejected. He recommends a variety of distances, terrains, and paces. He rejects everything else. There is no value in doing two "fast" sessions, one after the other."Run to the Top", 1962Page 43:"You will also see in the schedules detailed later in this book that, besides varying distances to alternate long and short runs, my system recommends variations in the training course ... and variations in the effort put into running .... I tried dozens of variations and I have rejected all but those which I now recommend."Page 72, after the simple hundred mile a week sample schedule of pure aerobic training:"The idea is to alternate the training. There is no value in doing two fast sessions one after the other. We follow a long or hard session with a short or easy one to give the body a chance to recover, and consolidate the condition run into it."

Joe maggio wrote:

I don't buy this one. It doesn't answer the question. I repeat: Reference the best aerobic pace can't be everyday ?

The quote doesn't prescribe the frequency of best aerobic pace.

It´s optional, can be 1-2-3-4-5-6 per week or everyday. Only the weekly long one it´s not the best aerobic pace.

The quote let us know that by option 4 days out of 7 are "quarter-effort". One schedule, one single schedule, might be one case of study, is not the core of training method, is one single case.

Question remains the same. Reference the best aerobic pace can't be everyday during the aerobic block ? You don't get it yet. In so many Lydiard writes you can't find something that straight interdicts the best aerobic pace everyday during the aerobic conditioning.

He doesn't say do it everyday, but he doesn't interdicts everyday.

rekrunner wrote:

"Run to the Top", 1962, page 42:

"The key to my conditioning training is one hundred miles a week. ... When you can run a hundred miles a week comfortably, the progressive subsequent improvement is not secured by running greater distances but by aiming to run the same distance [100 miles] a week, faster."

Now take some time to understand that what you quoted is totally different from Canova.

There is still some differences between Lydiard and Canova

Major differences. Totally different.

but it is a mistake to say that Lydiard's paces remain slow and easy as the athlete progresses.

No one ever said such a thing.

Many thanks to Renato for this clarity. Roger Moens always impressed me, a top competitor and very consistent, 800m WR in 1955, 47.3, 3:41.4, 3:58.9 mile. His training is on p55 of Fred Wilt's "How They Train, Middle Distances", 2nd edition.

Joe maggio wrote:

Reference, site address?

Canova 56 juniors training program is not the same programme that he trains world-class africans.

Besides Canova said on this forum that actually he is not competent to train average runners no more.

Are you really that lazy?

I commented on Renato's methods. The question was if they could be applied to common western runners. The answer is yes. I don't speak of using the same program of world champions, nor do I speak of who would train these western runners with Renato's methods.

Joe maggio wrote:

Question and reference ask is not about Lydiard pace. Question is about your comment on Canova pace.

I only commented on Lydiard's paces. They don't remain slow and easy.

J.R.

Really? You're back?

I never disputed their methods were different.

Reread Canova's points d) and e), and tell me what you conclude he says about Lydiard's aerobic running.

rekrunner wrote:

Reread Canova's points d) and e), and tell me what you conclude he says about Lydiard's aerobic running.

I see them as being differences, the same as Renato has said.

Do you see they are differences? If not, what do you think is the same?

I repeat. Where it´s said that can´t be the best aerobic pace everyday ? Still doesn't

You just take the text interpretation to your own profit.

The text prescribes pace pace variation fast or easy, and distance variation, short or long and also alternate the pace of training, The runner that does aerobic pace everyday might run short and long and soft pace and still might run one aerobic run per day with doubles.

For instance, the runner does one morning soft aerobic run and in the evening he does one long or short run at his best aerobic pace. Respects triple prescribe: pace variation, distance variation and variation, the best aerobic run without doing two fast sessions one after the other.

rekrunner wrote:

Joe maggio wrote:

Reference, site address?

Canova 56 juniors training program is not the same programme that he trains world-class africans.

Besides Canova said on this forum that actually he is not competent to train average runners no more.

Are you really that lazy?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4290090&page=49

I commented on Renato's methods. The question was if they could be applied to common western runners. The answer is yes. I don't speak of using the same program of world champions, nor do I speak of who would train these western runners with Renato's methods.

No you don't. Your original don´t comment on western runners. You comment Canova's training is suitable for everyone. Or everyone if from average runner to western juniors promises to world top class africans.

On your earlier post you wrote this precisely.

Canova's training is suitable for everyone.

Canova coached that western runners long before to go to Kenya and on the last decade dedicates his knowledge to train top class runners with by his own method but quite different training to what he used on western juniors. Actually his own method is suitable for world top class runners and not suitable for everyone.

Once on this board Canova wrote that since is used to coach top class runners his ability is not the same to coach average runners.

If you don´t trust me that he posted what i say, don´t be lazy and search on this board. Don´t be lazy.

rekrunner wrote:

Question and reference ask is not about Lydiard pace. Question is about your comment on Canova pace.

I only commented on Lydiard's paces. They don't remain slow and easy.[/quote]

No you don't. You comment on Canova pace.

i read in your post of pace 11

rekrunner wrote:

In the first case, Lydiard says in one of his books, regarding 100 mpw, something like "when you can run 100mpw, don't run more, but run them faster". Lydiard also increased the intensity of the easy runs, as the athlete progresses. Maybe Canova's paces end up faster, but it seems a common mistake to think that all of Lydiard's "aerobic" mileage remains slow and easy as the athlete progresses over the years.

You are so out of memory that you don't remember that you said Maybe Canova's paces end up faster ?

Actually what you say it's not correct. As i said earlier Canova paces end up faster but also longer distance. Canova method to longer the distance is as important as faster the pace.

Joe maggio wrote:

You are so out of memory that you don't remember that you said Maybe Canova's paces end up faster ?

Actually what you say it's not correct. As i said earlier Canova paces end up faster but also longer distance. Canova method to longer the distance is as important as faster the pace.

nice to see you writing again pfft

Joe maggio wrote:

You are so out of memory that you don't remember that you said Maybe Canova's paces end up faster ?

Actually what you say it's not correct. As i said earlier Canova paces end up faster but also longer distance. Canova method to longer the distance is as important as faster the pace.

If Canova says this he makes a very big mistake. First is volume second is intensity.

hello antonio wrote:

If Canova says this he makes a very big mistake. First is volume second is intensity.

That's a nice mistake to be making.

Reading those points, I concluded that Canova calls Lydiard's aerobic paces slow and easy, because Canova adds intensity, and this makes him very different from Lydiard. (Contrast that to "No one ever said such a thing").I said Lydiard's paces get faster. I still see them as different -- I don't see why you keep bringing that up. What's the same? Both Lydiard and Canova's aerobic paces get faster.Do you think Lydiard's paces remain slow and easy?

rekrunner wrote:

Reread Canova's points d) and e), and tell me what you conclude he says about Lydiard's aerobic running.

J.R. wrote:

I see them as being differences, the same as Renato has said.

Do you see they are differences? If not, what do you think is the same?

The text means what it says. The text I chose also prescribes recovery and consolidation. Will your new doubles scenario "give the body a chance to recover, and consolidate the condition run into it"?You have to meet all the requirements, or else your variation will also rightly join all the other variations that were rejected.

Joe maggio wrote:

I repeat. Where it´s said that can´t be the best aerobic pace everyday ? Still doesn't

You just take the text interpretation to your own profit.

The text prescribes pace pace variation fast or easy, and distance variation, short or long and also alternate the pace of training, The runner that does aerobic pace everyday might run short and long and soft pace and still might run one aerobic run per day with doubles.

For instance, the runner does one morning soft aerobic run and in the evening he does one long or short run at his best aerobic pace. Respects triple prescribe: pace variation, distance variation and variation, the best aerobic run without doing two fast sessions one after the other.