Lydiard Imitations

part 3

You accused me of dishonesty in relation to my assertion Italy and Italian T&F is corrupt. Clearly, you are being dishonest about this. Not me.

What does this have to do with Renato Canova and doping? Absolutely nothing. I don't claim or even care if you are involved in systemic doping. Your athletes have not done things impossible to achieve without drugs.

However, you call me dishonest. Yet you claimed to have coached a world class decathlete. I asked about this and you repeatedly ignore my questions. Perhaps i am the only one on this forum who can call you out on this lie. But if you have to keep insisting, prove it with your knowledge. by outlining your thinking on decathlon. You won't because you can't because it never happened - same as Antonio and his 2:09 marathoner he refuses to talk about.

This is why i am against you two - too much untruth going on.

And the end result of all of your untruths, which are all used to defend your modern methodology, is that thousands of people believe you, and embark on your path, and ruin themselves. I see it everywhere in developmental athletics. And this is part of the reason why we have diminished numbers in our sport. The other half to this equation is you make it seem like white guys have no chance - and the effect of that on the distance running world in most developed countries is devastating. These athletes in these countries need to be aware your system is short term and your athletes cease improving after about 3 years. This very fact needs to be made generally aware so people can begin to see that if they pursue a longer term approach, they can match the Africans, given a little time and patience.

Perhaps you are out of Italy and into Kenya because you are aginst PEDs and the Italian sporting system is rife with PEDs. This is possible. This is one of the reasons my coach left USSR. The training was becoming pharmacological and he was into natural. He also believed in a pretty high level of human potential and didn't see the need for PEDs to achieve this. An interesting story and i hope she doesn't mind.

Larisa Nikitina and after marriage Larisa Turchinskaya is still the third ranked heptathlete of all time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larisa_Turchinskaya

Larisa came to live in Melbourne in about 1996-7 and started training with our squad. She couldn't manage it and ended serious training fairly quickly. Something was missing. At the time we had 3 Olympians in the squad and for 12 months refused to believe we were not taking PEDs as we had made that Olympic level. She could not believe it ws possible to make this level without them, such was the conditioning of the system she came from. Mind you she was way beyond this level, way way way beyond. Yet she didn't believe she could make Olympics without them. Anyway after 12 months she said i believe you, these guys simply don't train anywhere near hard enough to need them.

But the important point - she could not even envisage it was possible to make these levels without PEDs - such was the indoctrination of the system she trained in. Don't be indoctrinated like this when it comes to MD. The short term approach is not necessary for success. There is another way.

Very sensitive guy, like a *********, that offends people most of the time, but feels very upset when someone says what he doesn´t like.

Dechatlon, heptatlon, cycling, billard, rugby, that might be your beloved sports. However here we debate distance run.

[quoteRenato Canova wrote:When I read the last posts, I understood Gipsy and HRE are not honest people. /quote]

Jackanory wrote:

Renato, that is something that becomes more & more apparent with each post they make.

I thought you were a rational person? Perhaps you can explain how and why you are jumping on this fallacious dishonesty claim of Renato's.

So, please do realise that your posts are very much appreciated by the majority of readers, & that those who oppose & snipe are blind and delusional ... & probably haven't even bothered to examine your training methods in any detail.

Considering i've already been tested on this the fact you bring it up is a bit strange is it not. Maybe your argument is a bit weak so you have to clutch at straws?

I like reading Renato's posts very much. I was over An tonio's quite quickly but Renato's are always interesting, i just exercise my right for critical thinking and free speech. Fair enough? In fact i think Rebatos program, for the last three months before a major, on the back of a Lydiard preparation, would work really well.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Very sensitive guy, like a *********, that offends people most of the time, but feels very upset when someone says what he doesn´t like.

Dechatlon, heptatlon, cycling, billard, rugby, that might be your beloved sports. However here we debate distance run.

You debate nothing ... your list of 23 types of activity is juvenile thinking. Perhaps your anger is due to this sentence

However, you call me dishonest. Yet you claimed to have coached a world class decathlete. I asked about this and you repeatedly ignore my questions. Perhaps i am the only one on this forum who can call you out on this lie. But if you have to keep insisting, prove it with your knowledge. by outlining your thinking on decathlon. You won't because you can't because it never happened - same as Antonio and his 2:09 marathoner he refuses to talk about.

Yes you are a fake. 2:09 marathoner ............................

You are so useless Gypsy...

Focus your mind on constructive training discussion not on bullshit like you are doing.

or leave letsrun, would be better

gypsy wrote:

i think Rebatos program, for the last three months before a major, on the back of a Lydiard preparation, would work really well.

Bingo. Renato's program is high volume and a mixture aerobic and anaerobic. Aerobic results in long term improvement, Anaerobic results in short term improvement. If you followed a Lydiard style base ie years of aerobic training followed by 3 months of Canova's (or ANY other anaerobic training) you will get excellent results.

The problem is if you try to continue Canova training year round you will fail to improve because anaerobic training results in short term benefit, not long term benefit.

This is where Canova differs from Joe Vigil. Vigil does not advocate high intensity anaerobic work year round like Canova. Vigil only uses anaerobic race specific pace work the last couple of months. The rest of the year is primarily aerobic base work which results in long term development of the athlete.

Canova is not interested in developing athletes, he is interested in plucking already world class athletes wherever they exist who spent 12 years developing themselves via aerobic training. Then Canova puts the frosting on the cake, ie the hard anaerobic training - the hill work, the intervals, the race pace hard long runs and they peak perfectly 3 months later - a result Lydiard would have predicted. Then he says his unique modern program did the trick.

I got news for Renato, ANY high volume program (yours, Vigil's, Lydiard's, Malmo's, Squires, Salazar, Schumacker, etc) will work provided the runner first has a huge aerobic base and follows it up with some hard anaerobic training such as hills and intervals and hard race specific long runs (Lydiard called these time trials) to peak for championship races. Sorry Renato, Lydaird already came up with all this as Mister Hodgie San has been trying to tell you.

Furthermore Lydiard was actually interested in developing runners from beginning level to world class something much more impressive than coaching guys like Kemboi who were already sub 27 capable before you latched on to them.

Your problem it´s that you are so self centered that you think that the board just thinks what you think. I don´t post for you specifically, otherwise if my posts were for you i wouldn´t post, because you are the lost case of this board, the idiot of this thread really.

You need to grow up, you are younger than my sons, you ned to grow up. You need to learn to live in community, to respect the other to be respected.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Your problem it´s that you are so self centered that you think that the board just thinks what you think. I don´t post for you specifically, otherwise if my posts were for you i wouldn´t post, because you are the lost case of this board, the idiot of this thread really.

You need to grow up, you are younger than my sons, you ned to grow up. You need to learn to live in community, to respect the other to be respected.

That was weak Antonio, and nonsensical. You act as if you have been the pillar of virtue.

Another interesting point. Renato's so called modern training which uses sophisticated terminology such as "linear versus regular periodization" where his runners "touch all the systems" year round so they don't lose them and do anaerobic work at "specific race pace".

Guess what? For the past 60 years 90% of all all US high school programs are touching "all systems" year round with specific race pace anaerobic interval training. They start anaerobic work on August 20th and keep doing it until the state law says they have to stop at end of June by which time the kid it totally fried. So they are "touching all systems year round" and with horrible results. These 90% programs suck every year because, again, anaerobic work results in only short term improvement. These crappy programs have their kids peak early season then they fall apart. There is no long term development.

The only difference between what these crappy programs do and Canova is Canova is doing high volume at the same time so they retain their aerobic base (that Canova didn't help build) that they spent years developing on their own and most importantly Canova coaches guys who are already world class, he doesnt' develop anyone, that is too much work and a bad risk/reward profile for someone trying to make money.

And I repeat, ANY high volume program works provided a huge aerobic base is established and then anaerobic work is used to sharpen into race shape and regardless as to when that anaerobic work is introduced because aerobic fitness is the key and ANY high volume program will get you there.

The 10% of high school teams who don't use a Canova approach (ie immediately throw their kids into anaerobic work and keep them doing anaerobic work year round as advocated by Canova with his touch all systems year round) follow Lydiard based programs (whether they know it or not) and spend time developing some aerobic fittness first before putting them into the anaerobic work and these same programs dominate year after year until the coach leaves.

So Canova's "modern" program of "touching all systems year round" and using anaerobic work at "specific race pace" has been used by the crappy US high school programs for 60 years and is nothing new. If you first develop an aerobic base or "house" as Canova calls it, his system will work but so will any anaerobic training work at that point. If you fail to first develop an aerobic base like the 90% crappy US high school programs ANY anaerobic training, Canova's included will fail.

Gypsy, in your answer you spoke about a lot of things, not connected with what you wrote before. I can admit that in Italy there is corruption, but I don't see any relation between the fact you paid 25 Euros, and you say I burn the athletes after 3 years. Did you see my list ?

And, about doping, go to read what the Association Press wrote on Wed, Oct 12, 2011 :

"The Australian Sport Anti-DSoping Authority says it recorded more doping violations in the past year than at any time since it was established in 2006. ASADA says Wednesday that 42 athletes recorded doping violations in 2010-2011 year from 7090 tests".

This is the list of Australian Sportsmen/women doped :

1. Philip Adams (shooting) Hydrochlorothiaride

2. Wayne Athorne (athletic) Dianabol

3. Nathan Baggaley (kayaking) stanozolol

4. Mark Bosnic (Football) Cocaine

5. Andrew Burns (Swimming) Ecstasy

6. Dean Capobianco (Sprinter) Steroids

7. Sergo Chakhoyan (Weightlifting) Stanozolol

8. Justin Charles (Football) Boldenone

9. Ben Cousins (Football) Methamphetamine

10. Anthony Gobert (Motorcycling) Cannabis

11. Casey Hall (Cycling) steroids

12. Andrew Johns (Rugby) Ecstasy

13. Stan Lazaridis (Soccer) Finarstenide

14. Rani Maitua (Rugby) Clenbuterol

15. Gael Mulhall (shot put) Steroids

16. Nathan O'Neill (Cycling) Phentermine

17. Stephen Pate (Cycling) Steroids

18. Wendell Sailor (Rugby) Cocaine

19. Mitchell Sargent (Rugby) Cocaine

20. Richard Smith (Cycling) Blood doping

21. Anissa Tann (soccer) Nandrolon

22. Shara Wame (Cricket) Diuretics

This list doesn't include any athlete positive in 2010-2011 (so we have to add other 42 doped).

This doesn't mean all the Australian are doped, suche as if there are corrupted people in Italy doesn't mean everybody is corrupted, and that if the Australians of 100 years ago went to kill the Aborigens putting poisson in the water they drank all the Australian of today are killers.

And, about my first athlete in decathlon over 8,000 points, try to do a little effort, and go to search yourself, if you are interested. For a person with your wide knowledge of everything I think is not very difficult...

And, about who says I'm not interested in developing athletes, I want to inform him that I'm in Italy the coach having in his career the highest number of athletes in the Junior National Team (56, in different events, 6 of them in Decathlon, so Gipsy is happy).

And, looking at the list I wrote before about the duration of my athletes, if I had athletes lasting at the top for 10-14 years, and I started to work with them only after they were strong, it means that my system, instead burning the athletes, is the best for becoming a Veteran...

At least, Nicholas Kemboi started with me when had 14'15" in 5000m, and I dind't start coaching him when was already under 27'.

Why do people not knowing anything feel the need to say stupidities ? I'm really surprise when I think how many idiots there are in the world.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Very sensitive guy, like a *********, that offends people most of the time, but feels very upset when someone says what he doesn´t like.

Dechatlon, heptatlon, cycling, billard, rugby, that might be your beloved sports. However here we debate distance run.

Seriously? This comes from someone who always barges in whenever "Lydiard" is mentioned, UNWELCOMED, and tries to shift the focus to "summer of Antonio". Now that's a laugh....

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Your problem it´s that you are so self centered that you think that the board just thinks what you think. I don´t post for you specifically, otherwise if my posts were for you i wouldn´t post, because you are the lost case of this board, the idiot of this thread really.

You need to grow up, you are younger than my sons, you ned to grow up. You need to learn to live in community, to respect the other to be respected.

...and this? This from someone who has been acting like a 15 years old for years whenever Lydiard threads pop out. Seriously, you are THE biggest hypocrit.

I am actually totally convinced anybody who speaks nicely about Antonio, say he's a decent coach or a nice guy or people who actually side him--like this French guy--is actually Antonio himself under a different name. He's done it many many many many times and he's known to do that over and over and over and over and over.... So nice try, Antonio. But it's pretty obvious.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

HRE wrote:

"Your" intentionally obtuse and argumentative.

Run away from the questions and their own contradictions with appeal of semantics.

And this too!! Run away from questions???????? Have you really answered everything you had been asked?

Antonio Cabral wrote:

Sorry. I got no files, records, anything written of my runner schedules. I don´t keep it.

But when i did write the final test about coach level II and the test is about to build the introductory season of a 20 years old middle distance male runner, the teacher gave me A, and said to me that in 30 years from all the coaches that did that test, the best one was my test. The test was in portuguese of course.

So let me get this straight.... You claim you had coached a 2:09 marathon runner and have this wonderful "methodology" but you have NO record, written file or ANYTHING on what you did, what you do, what you might do. But you got a great score on "written" test and the teacher praised that your paper was the best.

Seriously, how old are you?

kimmi wrote:

different nicknames

Enough of the spamming - Go Away.

Dude...as gypsy you do it all the time. I'm convinced that you are NUTS.

Bob it appears to me that you're kinda hurt that your own friend HRE has been made to look like the obsessive Moron that he truly is and now you want to attack Antonio. This is very surprising to me at it seems very out of character of you to do that, no?

HRE and Gypsy go away, you two have very little coaching experience and that's where the problem begins.

1000th post!