Lydiard Imitations

Imitation is the greatest form of flattery.

Let's hear your goings on of Lydiardism.

OK.

Generally speaking i like Lydiard (and Cerutty and other self experimenters) because i am one of these types as well. And because i can experiment and find out the same things that Lydiard found through his experiments, I gain a strong feeling of security in what I am doing.

I also like Lydiard because he comes from a meditative ideal and this drives his entire system. For me Lydiard Running is meditation in action. It complements the seated and lying meditations i practise.

If we take this view that running is a form of meditation then we can analyse it from this more fundamental level.

Perhaps i should try and explain this.

When you look solely at the physical benefits of meditation, you find a situation where the body is so relaxed that the breathing is actually re-oxygenating your system. Through this process we undergo healing (or recovery as its referred to). For a runner the recovery range of intensity can do the same thing. Especially as it is pushed into endurance. 120-130bpm for a long time stimulates a similar effect to meditation, in that your body is taking in more energy than it is expending.

So when i read about Lydiard investigating glycogen depletion through 50 mile Sunday runs and hear his thoughts about the increased capilliarisation that is stimulated through this specific type of activity, i see how his understanding has come from a level deeper than that of Normal Running Science. If Lydiard is looking at it like this then he must understand what meditation is really about. It is about expanding, yet most think this is only referring to the mind. It is also referring to the body. So through this meditation ideal we can come to see how the body can be expanded in capacity not only though lifting your upper levels of capacity but also by strengthening the lower levels as well.

This is messy i know and it can be refined through our mutual efforts.

WTF???

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gypsy wrote:

OK.

Generally speaking i like Lydiard (and Cerutty and other self experimenters) because i am one of these types as well. And because i can experiment and find out the same things that Lydiard found through his experiments, I gain a strong feeling of security in what I am doing.

I also like Lydiard because he comes from a meditative ideal and this drives his entire system. For me Lydiard Running is meditation in action. It complements the seated and lying meditations i practise.

If we take this view that running is a form of meditation then we can analyse it from this more fundamental level.

Perhaps i should try and explain this.

When you look solely at the physical benefits of meditation, you find a situation where the body is so relaxed that the breathing is actually re-oxygenating your system. Through this process we undergo healing (or recovery as its referred to). For a runner the recovery range of intensity can do the same thing. Especially as it is pushed into endurance. 120-130bpm for a long time stimulates a similar effect to meditation, in that your body is taking in more energy than it is expending.

So when i read about Lydiard investigating glycogen depletion through 50 mile Sunday runs and hear his thoughts about the increased capilliarisation that is stimulated through this specific type of activity, i see how his understanding has come from a level deeper than that of Normal Running Science. If Lydiard is looking at it like this then he must understand what meditation is really about. It is about expanding, yet most think this is only referring to the mind. It is also referring to the body. So through this meditation ideal we can come to see how the body can be expanded in capacity not only though lifting your upper levels of capacity but also by strengthening the lower levels as well.

This is messy i know and it can be refined through our mutual efforts.

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Uh ok. I understand now. Pass the pipe bruh.

The gypsy mentality only goes so far. To the rest of us you just look like a lazy, irresponsible pandering idiot with no sense of social responsibility.

pissy and drunk wrote:

The gypsy mentality only goes so far. To the rest of us you just look like a lazy, irresponsible pandering idiot with no sense of social responsibility.

I'm wondering how you came up with that conclusion?

Gypsy,

I dunno about the whole meditative thing, to be frank.

Although I do agree with the self-experimentation. He was a Magelon of sorts and a great coach....both - not a common combination.

Building an aerobic base requires effort, not long-low-distance. LSD stood for Long Steady Distance, which I think meditating while running would not work. There was a time for slow running, but "slow" in the context of what Lydiard was talking about, was more towards not straining and not doing intervals all year round etc etc...."steady" is a better word to describe a lot of the running.

Wetcoast wrote:

Gypsy,

I dunno about the whole meditative thing, to be frank.

Although I do agree with the self-experimentation. He was a Magelon of sorts and a great coach....both - not a common combination.

Building an aerobic base requires effort, not long-low-distance. LSD stood for Long Steady Distance, which I think meditating while running would not work. There was a time for slow running, but "slow" in the context of what Lydiard was talking about, was more towards not straining and not doing intervals all year round etc etc...."steady" is a better word to describe a lot of the running.

I probably need to explain this meditation thing more. How is tricky.

When i look at what Viren did i see an athlete who understood this aspect of Lydiard's understanding. I think Viren exemplifies what i'm looking at here. He went deep and built a base that is rare. I'm looking at this base as an element that isn't cared for by most coach/athlete situations in current times.

This doesn't mean the other elements are diminished or ignored. Balance is my primary principle.

I can't see through your pronouns. What is the rare base of Viren?

How is body taking in more energy than it is expending? What is it doing with that witheld energy?

Body parts are nice wrote:

I can't see through your pronouns. What is the rare base of Viren?

How is body taking in more energy than it is expending? What is it doing with that witheld energy?

The base he laid culminating in his Olympic successes. Long term base - over a number of years.

The energy thing. You are running at a pace that is using less energy than you are taking in through the aerobic system. I assume it isn't soing anything with that unsed energy. It just sits in storage. Continue for long enough and it will be used.

You don't take in energy through your aerobic system. What does that even mean. Running only uses energy. Energy is restored through the consumption of calories. Oxygen is not energy. Maybe your post would make sense if we were plants.

gypsy wrote:

The energy thing. You are running at a pace that is using less energy than you are taking in through the aerobic system. I assume it isn't soing anything with that unsed energy. It just sits in storage. Continue for long enough and it will be used.

Aghast wrote:

You don't take in energy through your aerobic system. What does that even mean. Running only uses energy. Energy is restored through the consumption of calories. Oxygen is not energy. Maybe your post would make sense if we were plants.

Ok so it allows you to access the energy.

Well this was a disaster. That word energy. Damn :) I knew it was going to be a problem.

So I start again because i don't mind being criticised.

At the base of our fitness pyramid we have this long slow running where the aerobic system is deepened. ie Weekly/bi-weekly long run.

On top of that you have the long steady running which is where the aerobic system is expanded ie the 1 hour runs thrice weekly.

On top of that you have the anaerobic base where this lifting of the fatigue threshold continues to be raised. This begins in fartlek sessions and probably extends to things like 20x200.

On top of that you have the anaerobic peak where the ability to tolerate lactate and its related toxins is directly increased. ie 5x300/4min or 4x400/5mins

On top of that you have specific speed work which is enhancing the ability to move fast or with sharpness. Any speed work probably suffices if the normal training principles are followed. Racing also enhances this.

So from bottom to top a certain process of development is followed for optimum performance. For me performance is diminished through not developing one or another of the above factors in balance.

The way i started this topic was with the emphasis on the very first stage for it seems to be the least observed by MD runners.

If we extend back from being an athelete or even a recreational runner we come across Lydiard's ideas about bringing health to the sick. A heart dieases patient was advised to walk a marathon. It took time in training to get to that stage for this person. Needless to say after achieving this goal he didnt have a heart problem anymore.

This example shows that Lydiards system is one of total health and extends from someone literally bedridden all the way through to Olympic Champions and World Record Holders.

I am just seeing that a large propoertion of MD runners would gain greatly if they paid more attention to the bottom end of their fitness pyramid.

Miss Lorraine and Mr. Nobby - two Lydiard representatives and experts - worked on identifying Lydiard training principles. According Mr. Nobby they tried to see if they can “apply each and every one of them to training a 4-minute-miler or a 4-hour marathon runner”.

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4030549&page=14

They identified the following as Lydiard Principles:

* Aerobic development

* Feeling-based

* Response regulated

* Sequential training pattern

* Peaking

On that same post thread Mr. Nobby suggests that I may not like them because some of them are quite vague. I don´t like or dislike, but I don´t see no difference from the 5 principles among every other training method. Besides I hope they tried hard and long length to take out the 5 Principles, years of research, what to me it took less than one day of reading, but I don´t claim to be a genius or a Lydiard expert. But I know one or two things about Lydiard training and it´s enough.

I tried to read and let know everything thing from Lydiard trustful source, from Lydiard himself without the need of every Lydiardism help.

Let me put everything I learned from Lydiard in one sentence. One sound-bite.

“Maximise aerobic conditioning, and do it first.”

That’s it right there. As far as I am concerned, all Lydiard ever wrote can be summed up in that phrase.

The way to do that, the method of doing that, is something he was never quite able to put into words. He said run at ¼ pace or ½ pace. What is that? I never could get my head around it (understand it). I don't know anyone who can. I asked many times who is the Lydiard expert able to put that pace percent/fraction in chrono performance, no one couldn´t. People today cannot (if they ever could). The people who best understand Lydiard, do so because they talked to him. Because he could not enunciate things clearly and write them down, it is exceedingly difficult for the average guy in the street to “get” Lydiard. You read all he wrote, and you still don’t know what pace to run tomorrow morning.

What means “feeling-based” and “Response regulated” ? How can I know what I will do tomorrow morning if I don´t know how I will feel tomorrow ?

He also wrote “everyday best aerobic pace”. That doesn’t work. You just get very motivated runners trying to ignore the need for recovery days and calling themselves a weakling if they don’t “try their best” everyday. People want and need better guidance than that; they want real numbers (could be HR, could be percent of race pace ...)

That one-peak-per-year stuff that Lydiard believed in actually two revised ? No elite can afford to do that today, nor does any average Joe want to take a whole year to get ready for a short peak.

The hill-phase? There are many ways to access those FT fibres without six weeks of hill-work.

So Lydiard’s whole teaching (to me) all comes back to: “Maximise aerobic conditioning. And do it first.”

Which I do not agree with by the way, but if you ask me I’ll come to that later.

And that was some radical thought for his times which was based on an interval background, and everyone acknowledges that … but the actual how to do that is up for grabs.

I'm gonna go with what Peter Snell said, there was "nothing magical" about Lydiard's schedules.

On my Cabral and John Hadd thread “2 kinds of runners. Which are you?”

we showed that with two different kind of runners Mamede and Lopes there is more than one single way to get achieve the high aerobic conditioning.

2 kinds of runners. Which are you?

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=2375989&thread=2375989

So Lydiard’s (or anyone’s) claim that you must run “best aerobic pace” everyday is wrong. That might work for a particular kind of runner. Our argument is that there is not just “one way” and that the difference has nothing to do with miles per week and everything to do with differing training intensities and methodological approaches. It is an indisputable fact Mamede achieved faster times at 5k and 10k with interval training than Lopes did with greater mileage and hard tempo training.

I read one LRC thread concerning a complete overhaul of US training…

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2628799&page=6

On that thread, someone called Past Perfect, wrote the following:

“Lydiard did talk in private about the 2 types of runners and the FT and ST runners many times. That is all based in fibers. You may read it in several Lydiard books. He name it adjusting application. Some they need 100 miles some others only 99. That is why he trained differently Peter Snell and John Davies for the 64 olympics.”

To me, that’s like stating that in private, Genghis Khan claimed to be gay ! (not that there's anything wrong with that !) LOL ! You can claim Lydiard said anything in private !

So this post just makes me laugh!

I’m surprised to see that someone is claiming this on Lydiard’s behalf. Sounds like revisionist stuff to me. But it's still wrong, it has nothing to do with 100 miles per week or 99 miles per week, the difference in training between Runner ST and Runner FT is one of training intensity and methodology, and not simply total weekly mileage !

Besides, I have one of Lydiard’s/Gilmour's books at home and nowhere does he mention FT vs ST. “Adjusting application” is not the same thing. Saying that all training needs to be individualized is not the same thing. That’s like stating that every voter has his/her own opinion on a number of aspects. Such a statement tells you absolutely nothing.

However, if you know that Voter A is rapid Republican and Voter B is staunch Democrat, then you suddenly know a huge amount about each individual and you also have a very good idea of their opinion on a number of issues without asking them a darn thing ! So, saying it’s all individual, says nothing. But being able to classify someone as runner type, tells you an incredible amount about the best training approach for any individual.

Finnaly I want to answer your question.

Since “response-regulated” is feeling-based” it´s an individual and personal matter, everybody that “Maximise aerobic conditioning and do it first” follows Lydiard, so it wouldn´t be hard to thousand Lydiard runner and many Lydiard coaches.

It´s easy. “Maximise aerobic conditioning. And do it first.”

Of course, almost everybody that says he does Lydiard, or did read Lydiard says that every book since Lydiard has asked you to train “run easy first”, but they just say “run easy” feeling-based and response regulated, and it has been my experience that very many runners get the definition of "easy”… wrong !

Imitate Lydiard ? One impossible mission ! Discuss Lydiard through the eyes of coaches ? Easy Mission !

Antonio hi.So many things you have said make me want to ask questions so i hope our chatter continues for some time and we can go many places in this sort of theoretical discussion.First of all i am aware of the religion of Lydiardism and i am careful not to get caught up in it. Having said this there is something similar to religion in studying Lydiard. There is a certain amount of faith required to explore his world and discover the same things he discovered for himself. Without that faith the discovery process cannot even start. Its a catch 22 problem i guess.I guess what i just said is the crux of the problem when it comes to scientifically analysing every aspect of Lydiard's stuff. Once you go past a certain point in the training process the individual variances make such an analysis difficult, even though the underlying principles remain the same. (I would argue they are whether you are Lydiard, Igloi, Cerutty, Cabal or Petrov the pole vault coach etc)So what are these underlying principles? That is what i would like to get to the bottom of. Not just what they are as but show how they are present similarly in all different types of training methodologies. Like how is Lydiard seemingly following Soviet Periodisation priniciples and vice versa. That would be one general area i am interested in.So how do we go about this? I guess i could ask a question or two of you. Starting with the one you proposed yourself.

Antonio Cabral wrote: So Lydiard’s whole teaching (to me) all comes back to: “Maximise aerobic conditioning. And do it first.”

Which I do not agree with by the way, but if you ask me I’ll come to that later.

A juicy one! thanks for starting with it.

gypsy

Most of us who live in developed ountries do not develop our cardiovascular systems to their fullest. Arthur's system maximizes the cardiovascular system's development. Once that's done you're more fit and better prepared to benefit from what most people think of as "training."

As your trust the religious way i hope that this time you don´t think that i want to move the main Lydiard debate to the question "long runs, yes or no ?".

Those who think that i resume my focus to the long run don´t understand anything at all.

Might be the problem is that i don´t write english very well...or that i post anonymous.

Antonio Cabral wrote:

As your trust the religious way i hope that this time you don´t think that i want to move the main Lydiard debate to the question "long runs, yes or no ?".

Those who think that i resume my focus to the long run don´t understand anything at all.

Might be the problem is that i don´t write english very well...or that i post anonymous.

Hi again

I don't trust the religious way, never have and never will, Christianity included (although jesus is a great role model). I prefer to deal in whats hidden behind such things. Faith is the only place to start when trying something new but is not required beyond that point. Real experience is what drives everything that follows.

And i don't know anything sorry about your long runs or not long runs or why or not. But i am interested in how you deal with developing the aerobic capacity without them.

And i like your version of english. Any intelligent non english native speaker is great for me. The nuances and angles you phrase things from is often more comprehensive in what it says compared to normal western english. You guys often bring the wisdoms of your culture through.

Still, lets discuss this aerobic capacity thing. What is it and how do you develop it?

Here we have a clue to better Lydiard training understand. Consider this. Training is no more discriminated by fiber type or individual need or distance event requirement. Training is discriminated by developed and undeveloped countries.

So…get back to the 60s and i see different need of aerobic from the runner of undeveloped country to another runner from develop country. Jim Ryan for instance or Bob Schul or they are both from US and undeveloped country as you know. No need to maximise aerobic conditioning, and do it first.” In this case. However Peter Snell, Murray Halberg, John Davies, they do because they are from NZ a developed country. During the same period Michel Jazy he doesn´t need to maximize the aerobic condition because he is from France an undeveloped country.

During the 80s those from Finland, Belgium, Portugal they come from European undeveloped countries and it´s why they don´t need to maximize their aerobic systems because their cardiovascular system is strong.

Or during the 80s still, all british middle-distance runners wit huge results, Seb Coe, Steve Ovett, now I know why they don´t do so many miles like the others. They come from GB an undeveloped country.

However the main reason why Lydiard taught that the “aerobic comes first” it´s not that one either.