Why was Alberto Salazar's WR at NYC marathon disallowed?

My friend and I measured the Culver City Marathon unofficially on our own around 1976, and found it to be 1/4 mile short.

"Although Boston was much shorter than NY back in the day"

Interesting comment above.

For years (late 70's-early 80's) I wanted to measure Boston but Will Cloney wouldn't allow me. Something about letting a New Yorker touch his course!.

Anyway after he died, I along with Bill Noel was invited to measure Boston. We did the measurement on March 30, 1983 cutting all the tangest curb to curb.

The results: 26 miles 1151 feet & 8 inches (42193.97 meters!!). We were blown away.

I called Ted Corbitt after the measurement and he thought Boston would have measured long.

So why was NY short?

It all had to do with the interpretation at the time of measurement of the path to be measured. In many of Ted's writings he talked about the "prudent path" of the runners. Also the understanding of how much of the road would be available to the runners. All played a big part.

One of the more confusing things about the removal of Alberto's performance from the list of progression of world bests is that earlier performances stayed on the list! With no way of checking the accuracy of those courses.

New York City was 27.2 miles in 2008 according to my Garmin :D

No clue as to who you are but we are in agreement as far as him being credited. The man did everything but run the tangents. I've watched it many, many times and I truly believe that if anything he ran slightly longer, not shorter. Both him and Jose Gomez ran extremely close to the blue line and should be given credit for doing so. Alberto rarely came close to the curb in all those turns. 1982 was slower because of the wind that seemed to constantly be in their faces.

You have my pity Woody wrote:

No clue as to who you are but we are in agreement as far as him being credited. The man did everything but run the tangents. I've watched it many, many times and I truly believe that if anything he ran slightly longer, not shorter. Both him and Jose Gomez ran extremely close to the blue line and should be given credit for doing so. Alberto rarely came close to the curb in all those turns. 1982 was slower because of the wind that seemed to constantly be in their faces.

However, the records are not based on what one actually runs.

you mean 'course record'. maras have no WR.

The difference between the New York City Marathon and so many others on urban roads is that the roads in Central Park are not straight but often curved, "S" shaped" and such, and determining what path runners should take on those was not as easy for measurers to determine. I would guess that if NYC measured short, it was largely due to those park sections. But the shortage was nothing like the 400 meters someone claimed here. It was never reliably reported as being even half that.

Wanna upload it to fileshare?

I'd like to see that footage as well. The process of re-examining that record deserves merit. Based on -

a. the footage

b. a 1982 NYC satellite map comparing the course

c. a 2011 NYC satellite map comparing the course

d. examining the Jones counter used to measure the course.

(Consequently that should start saving those and marking them, with better documentation of courses.)

I remember reading in Runners magazine shortly thereafter

the NYC records that there was a "mass of runners"

perplexed by their own personal records?

I think the jury is out on this one. But I'd rule in favor

of Salazar's record, who can forget his chides with the Kenyans or pulling a trailer when sprinting against them. I mean that lovingly.

b,c,d are meaningless.

We know the course that was run.

It was re-measured by very experienced measurers.

Saving the jones counter(s)is useless and not practical.

Again-

1-it was the interpretation of where on the road the course should be measured.

2-the transisition period of the allowable tolerance.

And just for fun:

There weren't world records recognized at that time - only world bests.

Salazar signed my Nike poster in ~2003 and he wrote "2:08:13 WR".

You have my pity Woody wrote:

No clue as to who you are .

Katz

Was going to post the same thing. But in case someone does not want to click the link...David Katz appointed as the Road Course Measurer for the 2012 London Olympic GamesKiev, Ukraine August 8, 2010The IAAF Council (International Association of Athletic Federations) has voted unanimously to approve the appointment of David Katz as the Road Course Measurer for the 2012 London Olympics Games.David’s responsibilities will include the measurements of the Olympic Marathon and Race Walking Courses. In addition, he will oversee the course set up and monitoring of the routes during the competition.David has been a pioneer in the field of road race course measuring, first being appointed to the AAU Standards Committee Chaired by Ted Corbitt in 1977. Since then, David has assisted in the measurement of over 2000 courses including the 1984 & 1996 Olympic Games Marathons. He was appointed to the first class of IAAF Measurers in 1985.In addition to his work in road race course measuring, David is a member of the 16 member IAAF Technical Committee that reviews all technical matters of track & field, road racing, and race walking. Last year, the IAAF appointed David as one of the four International Cross County Road Race Officials (ICRO) in the world. More recently, he served as the one of the Technical Delegates to the World Junior Championships in Canada. Only one other American, Robert Hersh as every served as a Technical Delegate for an IAAF World Championship.A pioneer in the field!

Hodgie-san wrote:

You have my pity Woody wrote:

No clue as to who you are .

Katz

http://www.flrrt.com/london2012.htm

Some immediate afterthoughts by Alberto:

ROAD RUNNING JOE CONCANNON; THEY'RE IN AWE OF SALAZAR: [FIRST EDITION]

falseConcannon, Joe. Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext) [Boston, Mass] 31 Oct 1981: 1.

Derek Clayton, whose sometimes-questioned world record in the marathon had stood for more than a dozen years, was giving 5-1 odds in his office at Runner's World that Alberto Salazar wouldn't break his mark in the New York City Marathon. Editor Bob Wischnia had bet Clayton $200, and when Salazar heard of it, he told him, "Double it."

Yes, Salazar came, saw, predicted and conquered last Sunday in the New York City Marathon with his devastating world-record race (2:08:13) over the roads and bridges of the city, erasing Clayton's 2:08:34 and bringing the record to the US for the first time since Buddy Edelin lost it in 1964.

When he will run another marathon isn't certain, but when he does, he would like it to be in a race against Toshihiko Seko of Japan, who set a Boston Marathon record in April (2:09:26) and led a devastating sub-2:12 assault with his third straight Fukuoka win (2:09:45) last September.

Counting his win in New York last October (2:09.41, a record first marathon), Salazar joins Clayton, Seko and Bill Rodgers as the only runners to record two sub-2:10 marathons, and the prospect of a race involving Salazar, Seko and Rodgers in top form is enticing.

But it may never happen. Seko runs just Boston and Fukuoka, and Salazar won't be in Fukuoka on Dec. 6. "I wouldn't go in unless I was 100 percent," said Salazar. "He is, and I wouldn't be." Seko will probably defend in Boston next April, but Salazar probably won't run in that one either. "It'll interfere with my preparation for track."

Added Salazar, "I hope Seko will run New York next year, and we'll see who's the best. He's run 27:43 for 10,000 and I don't know of any other marathon runners besides Seko and myself who have run under 28:00. I feel I haven't peaked. I feel I should continue to improve. If my training goes well without any injuries, I should run faster.

"I expect the time to be down to 2:05 or 2:06 before I'm through. It's an event that hasn't been concentrated on a lot. But the marathon's gaining so much in importance. There never has been an all-out assault. But if you got one race where all the conditions were right . . ."

In the excitement over the epic Salazar run, the companion women's world record (2:25:28) set by Boston winner Allison Roe was downplayed. In contrast to Salazar's prediction of a world record, Roe avoided any such prognostications. She simply ran as she had in Boston and finished strong.

"I wasn't going for a record at all," said Roe, who plans to defend in Boston. "Before Boston, I did a lot of long runs. For this race, I had to cut my training back because of a hamstring. I supplemented it with swimming. But my time trials were so much faster, and one thing I plan to work on is speed."-

That's great Mr. Hodge. I noticed Mr. 2:12 plus didn't respond to anything else I said. I had great respect for you Bob, but have since lost it. If you are going to go to bat for someone, fine, but say both sides.

Nothing personal against you Mr. Katz but I could care less about this and that method. My point was that Alberto did not run the tangents, period. You can wheel it, gps it, use fairy tale dust for all I care, I am not arguing that and am not interested.

My point is that I watched it live and taped it. I have watched it many, many times since and actually wrote Alberto about it and got a great 2 page hand written letter back in 1986!!!!!!!!, yes, 1986. I wrote to 4 publications and they all sent my letter to Alberto who kindly contacted me.

Alberto stayed in the middle, period. If he had run the tangents he would have smashed 2:08, easily I might add. Louis Kenny who was out in front for some time cut the tangents while ahead of Alberto and the pack and even he didn't cut anywhere near how a course certifier would do.

Why is this different? Simple. AFTER Alberto breaks the record, then let's remeasure it.

But everyone knew what he did the year before and with all of the talk in RW and elsewhere of him going for Derek's record (best) well before the race, why was it not done properly first time, and before the race? I'll make it even easier. Whatever they did before the race to measure, what changed afterwards that made it 148 or 184 meters short? Again, nothing personal Mr. Katz, but someone messed up and Alberto got cheated.

Did they remeasure after Bill ran 2:10:10 in 76"? Did they remeasure after his 2:12 in 79'?

Alberto got screwed, plain and simple. George (Malmo), Hodgie-san (Bob), Mr. Katz, etc...can all disagree but they don't know me so I could give a rip. It's all about egos.

As for my Beta tape, nope. It won't change anything and that's a fact.

I ran Boston in 83' and did quite well Hodgie-san, quite well indeed;) I just don't need to brag about how I am because it shouldn't mean anything.

Again, Alberto got screwed, period.

Your are correct- Alberto got screwed.

It wasn't measured properly because of the CHANGING measuring paremeters of that time and a missunderstanding of the available road space for the race.

And the New York Marathon wasn't the only race that this happened to. It just was the largest and the one with a World Best!

Most measurers in this country learned how to measure by writing to Ted Corbitt for instructions. I was very close to Ted but he never showed me how to measure, everything was in writing. We all took his writings and went out on our own. Few measurers every got together to measure and share methods and techniques.

Then something happened - we got the 1984 Olympics.

About a dozen top measurers of that time (Bob Letson, Tom Knight, Allan Steinfeld, Pete Riegel,myself, and others were invited to measure the Olympic Course.

We spent days discussing the methods and protocols. We finally were all on the same page.

In my opinion it was the birth of accurate road course measuring in this country...and for around the world.

I would draw a big red line at this date and list all of the great times prior to this date as notable performances.

The bottom line: I think Alberto ran 42195m that day and most probably a lot farther then Clayton!

Good

It's a nice day here in New York. I'm going for a bike ride.

fyi- I measured the NYRR Run to the Finish 5k (marathon weekend) the other night.

Great course -starts at the United Nations, finishes at the Marathon Finish line - 3 turns. Everyone should come out and run it if your not running the marathon the next day.

David Katz wrote:

The bottom line: I think Alberto ran 42195m that day and most probably a lot farther then Clayton!

So what you are saying is that a WR set on a track that measured 397 meters is OK if the runner ran 'mostly' in the middle of the lane? LOL.

technically, tracks are 399m. the 400m measurement actually comes from about 1' into the lane (the average location of someone running in lane 1). That's why when they measured the NYC course, they measured it 0.30 meters from the curb.