The Frank Shorter Story

Mrs Bowie wrote:

Are you related to Fita Lovin?

Well played sir.

SomeCoach wrote:

Corporal punishment may be at an all time historical low in the US at this point in time. Kids are about as disrespectful as I've ever observed. Too little .....

It would be curious to find out how many successful adults have had to fight against childhood abuses. If it turns out to be a stimulus to success, that's a hell of thing .....

I see where you are coming from, but I think that is too strong a statement. Perhaps parents who grew up resenting how they were treated are over-correcting for their parents a bit. I do see some parents trying to be their kids' friends rather than their parents. I think this is a mistake.

My dad was not all bad. He was a brilliant teacher/managed to teach me algebra by 2nd grade. And I learned how to conduct myself in public from him (basic skills that a lot of kids/parents lack). Unfortunately these memories are easily obscured by his horrendous lapses in judgment.

I, too, think that there is likely a LOT of distance runners with a similar childhood background. It gives kids all the things that are lacking in an 'abusive' household. Curious to hear others' stories.

jesse was a friend wrote:

I am utterly appalled at your deficit in cognition. I did not say Frank Shorter owed his father tremendous gratitude for "abusing him." You are not very bright. I wrote that one COULD make an argument that Frank owes his father tremendous gratitude for being a huge catalyst in relation to his stupendous achievements. You have distorted my words. You don't know what Dr. Shorter did for Frank and neither do I. Most people are not all good or all bad, just as, despite appearances, you likely are not always a complete moron, but might for instance, despite your low IQ, be capable of changing a tire, for instance.

Catalyst, shmatalyst.

Your opinion is still idiotic.

The only thanks that Frank could give would be to the blind luck of genetics -- there are thousands, if not millions, of athletes who had just as tough beginnings and never had the talent /genetics to get as good as Frank got.

Somehow, I think, Frank would trade the Olympic medals and the fame etc., for a safe, loving, nurturing childhood for himself and his siblings.

You have massive issues, "Jesse."

Perfect statement/sentiment. Good on ya.

...I know people that went through something like what you went through (we can never compare and it is not a contest, but you get the idea) and came out of childhood trauma with things like...almost zero visual memory (try to learn how to spell or write, or study or get an advanced degree with that), ADD/ADHD...

Not a counselor wrote:

[quote]SomeCoach wrote:

It would be curious to find out how many successful adults have had to fight against childhood abuses. If it turns out to be a stimulus to success, that's a hell of thing .....[/quote)

It would be pointless research.

You could never get an accurate read on how much abuse was helpful in success, and how much abuse was counter to success.

Unless abjectly lying, if a person feels they were abused in childhood -- they were.

The denial system in protecting offender parents, is, sometimes, massive. Individually and as a society.

You have it spot on neurologically. Your father's horrendous lapses in judgment -- are much more "memorable" in neuroscience terms -- than his "good behavior."

The human brain is wired to remember trauma's instantly and deeply so that we may (whenever possible, and this is where child abuse is extra bad - you don't have the power) avoid them in the future.

Get Real ReaI wrote:

Somehow, I think, Frank would trade the Olympic medals and the fame etc., for a safe, loving, nurturing childhood for himself and his siblings.

You have massive issues, "Jesse."

That is not the point. You are incapable of seeing my point due to the lack of intellectual firepower in your possession. I have made a point which Frank himself has conceded, that his story, if true, explains a lot about where Frank got the drive and impetus to excel in a sport which can reward a high tolerance for discomfort. The fact that somebody is smarter and more insightful than you is not tantamount to them having "massive issues." It is hopeless to attempt to engage with the intellectual midgets who react emotionally to objective appraisals.

It seems to me a lot of people in this thread are a little confused. There's a difference between spanking your kid when his behaviour is out of line and beating the crap out of your kid for no reason at all. Based on Frank's story, he and his siblings experienced the latter to such an extreme that his father even raped two of his daughters. That is unacceptable whatever way you look at it, even if it may have served as a catalyst for Frank's success.

Get Real ReaI wrote:

Not a counselor wrote:

[quote]SomeCoach wrote:

It would be curious to find out how many successful adults have had to fight against childhood abuses. If it turns out to be a stimulus to success, that's a hell of thing .....[/quote)

You could never get an accurate read on how much abuse was helpful in success, and how much abuse was counter to success.

Well, since there was an entire household being abused by Shorter, Sr., I think the fact that their stories range from the success of an Olympian to the disappointment of the eldest who was convicted of assault charges shows the range of effects of childhood abuse.

You don't have to apologize, you are entitled to your opinion.

I have taught and coached for a long time, in the community I grew up in. I know the families, and become pretty familiar with the kids a coach over four years. The best kids I have ever worked with tend to be those from families which apply an appropriate amount of corporal punishment. Just an observation.

To those posters who took offense in choosing to "question" the validity of Frank's story ... I'm strongly inclined to believe what he has presented. It speaks to his personality, and his siblings back up the statements. Nonetheless, a third party never observed the actions, and the number of these stories involving others (ruining reputations as well as lives) which have then been refuted at a later has to leave the reader with at least a whispering doubt.

Mrs. M wrote:

Well, since there was an entire household being abused by Shorter, Sr., I think the fact that their stories range from the success of an Olympian to the disappointment of the eldest who was convicted of assault charges shows the range of effects of childhood abuse.

This and I agree. Sorry when I first tried to post last night, I was cut off by interruptions and my fingers on the iPhone reacted too soon before finishing...

To SomeCoach, plenty people out there who are successful without having an abusive childhood. No need to scar children for the rest of their lives. I would not want to be praised for my success due to a stimulus/abusive upbringing. The result of my success would be the fight against the demon.

Some of you are struggling with my term "Appropriate Corporal Punishment." To whack a kid on his backside at the age of five so that he doesn't chase a ball into a busy road the second time is an effective memory stimulus for that age group, I struggle to term that abusive. In fact, not finding an appropriate method to keep the child from running into the busy road would be neglect.

SomeCoach wrote:

Some of you are struggling with my term "Appropriate Corporal Punishment." To whack a kid on his backside at the age of five so that he doesn't chase a ball into a busy road the second time is an effective memory stimulus for that age group, I struggle to term that abusive. In fact, not finding an appropriate method to keep the child from running into the busy road would be neglect.

That's probably because there is no such thing as "Appropriate Corporal Punishment"

And regarding:

"In fact, not finding an appropriate method to keep the child from running into the busy road would be neglect."

This is certainly true. It is equally true that being incapable of finding an appropriate method without resorting to physical violence would require a severely limited intellect.

SomeCoach wrote:

Some of you are struggling with my term "Appropriate Corporal Punishment." To whack a kid on his backside at the age of five so that he doesn't chase a ball into a busy road the second time is an effective memory stimulus for that age group, I struggle to term that abusive. In fact, not finding an appropriate method to keep the child from running into the busy road would be neglect.

Or you could take away the ball....

I was a victim of much milder and more infrequent abuse than Shorter describes, but I very much related to one thing he said ...that there was always the possibility that he could get pummeled at any moment, for essentially no reason at all. I do relate to that climate of uncertainty and "looming" violence, which was very much the atmosphere at my house.

Get Real ReaI wrote:

Unless abjectly lying, if a person feels they were abused in childhood -- they were.

This is something, in my experience, not a lot of people understand. It's a personal perspective that forms individual and cognitive responses. I think it follows the discussion as well.

Whether one actually chooses, or simply chances, to respond to abuse with success is not measurable. Conversely, consider there are those who grew up in loving, nurturing homes who turn out to be serial killers, sociopaths, lawyers, etc. (that last one is a joke...)

Personally, I'm part both (choose/chance.) As I look back on my four decades the success I have had is in large part self directed and motivated by a counter-influence. But I am keenly aware that but for a few chance instances (meeting my wife being one), I would be dead drunk in a gutter, either wondering where to get the next five bucks for a bottle or a shotgun blast of mercy to my head.

Off the Grid wrote:

SomeCoach wrote:

Some of you are struggling with my term "Appropriate Corporal Punishment." To whack a kid on his backside at the age of five so that he doesn't chase a ball into a busy road the second time is an effective memory stimulus for that age group, I struggle to term that abusive. In fact, not finding an appropriate method to keep the child from running into the busy road would be neglect.

Or you could take away the ball....

And then what? Be accused of causing psychological trauma due to lack of ball playing time as a youngster?

If a parent were to somehow dodge every possible physical and psychological mine field they will surely produce the finest spoiled brat of the century .....

Possibly true but that doesn't justify all sorts of punishments. And it's actually possible to teach kids right from wrong in ways that don't require punishment.

RW reader wrote:

I know it's popular to trash RW, but these articles make it worthwhile.

i think of RW much like this message board; mostly fluff and stupidity, but every now and then, a true gem