Rounding into race shape...HS XC season...help?

Another Distance Dad wrote:

So, the summer of malmo is winding down soon. My daughter put in more miles over the last two months than in the previous two yearsit seems. She is at about 45-50 mpw and going into her freshman year with no injuries, fatigue or burnout. She has her first meet in about 18 days but no "major meets" until mid-late October. She has been "just running miles" and had very little in terms of speed work, hills, etc. What does she do now in terms of tapering for competition without peaking in September? She wants to put up solid performances in these early meets too as any competitive kid would. Again, all help is very, very much appreciated.

How can you say she is doing the summer of malmo and then say she has done very little speed work, hills, etc. The summer of malmo has a couple of quality workouts a week.

I hear so many people talk about the summer of malmo without really knowing what it is or not really following it.

To answer your question, she should not be tapering down anything for early season competition. I assume her coach will begin to give her quality workouts, which will start preparing her for the races without peaking her. As the season winds down, she will begin to decrease her miles and again, I assume her coach will alter her workouts somewhat to help her peak.

Ok, poor choice of words. She ran some inconsistent "workouts" with some local runners but nothing overly intense. Per malmo, her main goals were to (1) increase the mileage and (2) to run doubles -- done.

In regards to coaching, that is the problem. She attends a very small school with an even smaller XC program (and little coaching). She was All-State last year as an 8th grader on talent and hard-work but little to nothing from coaches or parents in terms of programs/instruction.

My thoughts:

1. 45 - 50 mpw is very good summer mileage for a freshman girl, so she should be very well prepared for workouts.

2. No reason to be running doubles with an average of 6-7 miles a day. I think that cutting 6-7 mile days in two is probably actually counterproductive. Doubles become important at about 70-80 mpw.

3. If she just shifts some of her steady runs to tempos and intervals, that should do it. Each week = 1 tempo day, 1 interval day, one long day, one rest day, other 3 days moderate 'as-you-feel'.

Incoming freshman in high school or college? Gosh running doubles as a high school girl doesn't happen often. Well, even though she put in miles, the off season isn't just about "putting in miles." She should have been doing two threshold workouts a week, one being a tempo run and the other being some sort of fartlek run. The next month or so she needs to develop her threshold before she goes into any serious training. Well, she doesn't NEED to, but it will help her be much faster by October. Again though, doubles as a 14 year old girl is very impressive.

I think there are three main points of emphasis with the summer of malmo; run more, meet with a group and do some moderate speed work or tempo runs. If you read the summer of malmo, the speed or quality part of it is very important. Here is a link of the summer of malmo, which I am sure you have seen:

http://pih.bc.ca/summerofmalmo.html

. With that said, summer is almost over and you are concerned about the season. As the above poster said, she is getting good miles for a freshmen girl and that is going to prepare her well for the season, even with inconsistent workouts. I also agree with them that at 45-50 miles a week it is better to just run once a day, but other people have different opinions on that.

One thing that you will find is that even with poor coaching, a talented and motivated kid can still improve. Just the racing itself is going to help your daughter get better each week. She just needs to start incorporating a few tempo type runs and a few intervals and she will do well in the early season meets and once she gets to where there is two to three weeks left in the season she can start lowering her mileage and decreasing the total volume of the quality workouts. Hopefully there is a coach or somebody around that can give her more specifics. It is really difficult for someone to coach someone without seeing any of their races or workouts or talking with that person on a fairly frequent basis. Good luck.

Maximus wrote:If you read the summer of malmo, the speed or quality part of it is very important.

You have poor reading skills.

malmo wrote:

Maximus wrote:If you read the summer of malmo, the speed or quality part of it is very important.

You have poor reading skills.

Q: What about those 200s? Why are we doing speed work now?

A: The only way to run fast is to, well, run fast. The time to start is now. Let's say the group is running 200s. Just go out and run them. FULL RECOVERY. The whole point is to train the neuromuscular system, to concentrate on the mechanics of running - you know it: forward lean, arm carriage, knees up and out, heels clipping your butt, stride length and turnover. I've always been amazed at the number of runners that think that they can "get speed" during the last three weeks of the season. It doesn't work that way.

Q: So what you're saying is a five mile tempo run once a week AND, lets say, five by one mile, OR 16 x 200 for the other workout?

A: That's exactly what I'm saying. All of these workouts should be within yourself. Remember this isn't the end-all training program, it will prepare your for the real work to begin in September.

Q: Go over that again?

A: (1) twice-a-day, as many days as you can - four, five or six days a week (2) increase your mileage, look, you guys are made of the same muscle and bone as me, you can do it. Find your own sweet spot (3) meet with a group twice a week (4) one tempo run of just four to six miles and (5) one workout of 1200m to 2000m repeats OR 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m (5) don't try to impress anyone, run within yourself (6) relax, the real training doesn't begin until September.

I think I have pretty good reading skills. Obviously this is your training program, not mine, but the quality workouts seem like a pretty big key to summer of malmo, as well as increasing the miles and getting in double runs. Seems pretty simple.

No, you have poor reading comprehension skills. This is not speedwork. This is maintenance work. You do not understand SOM at all. All SOM paces are comfortable and well within your abilities. There are ZERO "quality" workouts in SOM.

malmo wrote:

No, you have poor reading comprehension skills. This is not speedwork. This is maintenance work. You do not understand SOM at all. All SOM paces are comfortable and well within your abilities. There are ZERO "quality" workouts in SOM.

You are so funny. Yes I understand SOM. What you are assuming is everyone uses the same exact terminology as you do. In my circle of runners and coaches we talk about "quality" workouts as anything but a distance day (strides, hills, relaxed tempos, hard intervals, short intervals, etc). I have seen just about every terminology used in regards to quicker paces (quality, speed work, hard workouts, effort runs, etc.). I use quality as a term for exactly the reason you are pointing out, so that someone does not necessarily mean speed work when talking about something faster (i.e. it is higher quality than a distance run, but not necessarily speed work).

Not once did I say high quality or intense quality, just quality. You assumed I meant high quality, which is not what the summer of Malmo is about. The OP was talking about just putting in the miles, without any quicker paces. You emphasize in one of my quotes above that you want to do something quicker in the summer and not wait until the last three weeks of the season which is what my point was to the OP.

It is all semantics and one reason people get confused about training, because different coaches refer to things in different ways. I apologize for using the word "quality", but I thought by not saying high quality or very intense, that it was understood. Obviously I was wrong on that one and I am sure others were confused by it as well, depending on the terminology they regularly use.

how come you are arguing with Malmo, about what the Summer of Malmo is

no one wrote:

how come you are arguing with Malmo, about what the Summer of Malmo is

And where am I arguing about what the summer of malmo is. I posted a link to it and responded to the OP's questions. Malmo knows what the summer of malmo is more than I do. We are arguing about terminology. The fact is, there IS faster work suggested in the summer of malmo, it is just what you want to call it. Many people would call 16 x 200 meters or 4 x 1600 meters speed work or quality work, etc., and some people may not. The OP's daughter was not doing anything but easier miles according to his first post, which if you read summer of malmo, that is not correct. Malmo is the one that emphasizes that you don't want to wait until the last three weeks of the season to do anything fast, I was just pointing that out to the OP.

Maximus wrote:

Many people would call 16 x 200 meters or 4 x 1600 meters speed work or quality work, etc., and some people may not. The OP's daughter was not doing anything but easier miles according to his first post, which if you read summer of malmo, that is not correct. Malmo is the one that emphasizes that you don't want to wait until the last three weeks of the season to do anything fast, I was just pointing that out to the OP.

You're nitpicking here. The obvious point here is that these "workouts" are half-quality days, just to get the legs moving a bit, nothing more. Look at hodgie san's summer of malmo-like program on his website for hs and college kids -- 200's are 35 or slower.

If this is a freshman HS girl (or boy), like 14 years old, then the least of her worries should be summer quality. A few races and early season workouts and she'll be fine. And when has it ever be said to "wait until the last three weeks of the season to do anything fast?" That seems absurd.

I wonder how most runners, especially high school runners would handle 16 to 24 by 150m to 300m that were to be completed "within ones selve" during the Summer of Malmo.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. But very interesting reading about everyones view on SOM, and fun to see how many variations come from one plan because of interpretational issues.

Great Stuff Malmo!

You need to release your FOM (Fall of Malmo) ASAP with a Vocab section so everyone can get on the same page. Seriously, you should consider putting out a training book.

Speedwork = ?

Maintenance work = ?

Comfortable Pace = ?

Quality Work = ?

Examples of all of the above would be great including pace and recovery duration and type.

Not nitpicking here, just trying to show that SOM does include some faster work, no matter what you want to call it. Malmo definitely emphasizes that these faster workouts should be relaxed, but they are still much quicker than a normal distance day. You gave 35 seconds per 200 as an example, well that is 4:40 mile pace, much faster than your typical high school kid will run on his distance days and also a much faster pace than 99% of them will ever race during the season.

I was wrong when I said Malmo emphasizes not waiting until the last three weeks to do anything fast. This is what he said- "I've always been amazed at the number of runners that think that they can "get speed" during the last three weeks of the season. It doesn't work that way". That is why he was recommending doing some of the "faster" running during the summer.

Maximus wrote:

Not nitpicking here, just trying to show that SOM does include some faster work, no matter what you want to call it. Malmo definitely emphasizes that these faster workouts should be relaxed, but they are still much quicker than a normal distance day. You gave 35 seconds per 200 as an example, well that is 4:40 mile pace, much faster than your typical high school kid will run on his distance days and also a much faster pace than 99% of them will ever race during the season.

So it's not 100% SOM -- but it's a 14 yr old girl! And she's run way more than ever before, started double days, isn't injured, isn't burned out... it seems... perfect.

Thread Follower wrote:

Great Stuff Malmo!

You need to release your FOM (Fall of Malmo) ASAP with a Vocab section so everyone can get on the same page. Seriously, you should consider putting out a training book.

Speedwork = ?

Maintenance work = ?

Comfortable Pace = ?

Quality Work = ?

Examples of all of the above would be great including pace and recovery duration and type.

Why would he need to do this? SOM is presented as a general guide - it is the idiots elevating it to gospel (a la Lydiard)that are the problem.

Malmo presented ideas of what could be done, with the proviso that basic physiological "givens" be included throughout without emphasizing their importance, which was still about the base. i.e. don't call it speedwork when it really isn't. If you want anything more concrete than this, then go to Daniels's and follow his "Formula". Remember it wasn't Malmo who introduced SOM on this thread.

Anyone who doesn't understand what Malmo was saying really needs to spend some time getting to know the sport a little more - or simply hire a coach (lots around) who might have their own understanding without having to resort to pre-packaged internet "programs", as if that is the answer to athletic development.

caligula wrote:So it's not 100% SOM -- but it's a 14 yr old girl! And she's run way more than ever before, started double days, isn't injured, isn't burned out... it seems... perfect.

Where did I say the 14 year old girl should even be doing the SOM or following it 100%? The OP said his daughter was following SOM and I simply pointed out that they really weren't, based on what is clearly written on the SOM. She is doing the main point of SOM which is getting more miles in and doing doubles. That is great. Nowhere did I say she SHOULD be doing tempo runs or 200's or 1600's or anything. I think she is ready to go and will have a good season and hopefully she can find some coaching along the way, which it sounds like she doesn't have at her school.

This discussion just reinforces a theme that comes up again and again in training discussions. The word "speed" often conjures up thoughts of a really hard effort whereas the training Malmo (and others) describe calls for "faster" running. That's a relative term, unique to each athlete. On the days of the tempo and track workouts, the runner moves faster, but not necessarily harder (which, in these contexts means straining), than he/she does during the bulk of the mileage. A clarifying example for me is when Malmo describes jumping into a workout after a layoff. He couldn't handle the pace of the repeats over the full distance, so he just hopped in and out as he pleased. The takeaway is he got a taste of faster running in doses he could comfortably handle until he could do the full reps with his training partners.