5000m Specialists: What Is The Fastest You Need To Do In Training?

Sounds good. And do you think I should be doing my threshold intervals at basically my 10k pace then? slightly faster? slightly slower? or keep them consistent but throw in occasional pace changes to prepare for racing?

Hi, I just want to make sure I'm reading your post correctly. You're saying that those speed workouts you listed did not help with your 5K? I have been doing very similar workouts and have found that I have pretty much quit PRing.

However, a lot of higher mileage with maybe some 8-10 mile tempos each week for one summer and I drop a lot of time. Is this the same thing for you?

Thanks

sprint7 wrote:

Hi, I just want to make sure I'm reading your post correctly. You're saying that those speed workouts you listed did not help with your 5K? I have been doing very similar workouts and have found that I have pretty much quit PRing.

However, a lot of higher mileage with maybe some 8-10 mile tempos each week for one summer and I drop a lot of time. Is this the same thing for you?

Thanks

Yes, that is a correct reading. I will say that they probably were not the only factor, but when I did those workouts, I raced like crap.

And to the guy who asked about doing a bunch of 10K-marathon paced stuff and racing a 5k. I would pretty much agree with what others have said, this kind of work will get you 95-99% prepared to run a fast 5k, but I would think towards the end of the season or when you want to peak, you would want to do start working into some more goal specific stuff. Maybe cut down the last couple reps of your 10k paced workout to 5k pace. Like someone else suggested do a lot of 200s at 3k pace. In my experience workouts like this will not take a huge toll on the body and reap great rewards in a race.

Just remember what workouts got you to your high level of fitness and don't fall in love with the speed sessions.

You need those very hard workouts, during the peaking phase of your training. But you also need to be able to sprint flat out at the end of a race if you want to win.

Skuj wrote:

J.O. wrote:

Flat out at the end of workouts and some all out sprints.

All track runners need to be able to sprint at the end don't they?

How can you allow yourself to "sprint" at the end of a 5k though? Is this really a question of endurance mostly? ie Feeling well at the bell?

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When you have company on that last lap, you either outkick your rivals, or they outkick you. So you have to prepare for this, The faster the race, the shorter the sprint, but it would be a shame to work so hard in training and racing and lose races.

I always finish a hard race pace session with a flat out sprint. I also do pure speed work most weeks of the year.

Though personal experience I found that the best way to have a kick is through resistance training. Sprinting at the end of a wkout that stresses the heart and lungs may not be the key. Try doing some sprints or drills after your weight room session.

Another poster denying the importance of kicking flat out at the end of workouts.

Look guys, you can only use your kick at the end of a race if you practice doing just that. You always have your fastest twitch fibers there waiting to be used in the last 200-300m but learning to kick hard at the end of a hard race require specific training.

eojtlc wrote:

I'm not sure that it is common knowledge. I even ran my mile pr in the winter off of base work. I probably could have run faster given more attempts in the spring, but I did run one 1500, and it was slower than I ran with no speed work whatsoever.

I appreciate your reply to my post. As for the "common knowledge" suggestion, please read my clarification above.

Running a mile PR off base training is not unheard of. Without knowing anything about your previous training program, however -- especially with respect to training for 1 mile races -- it is hard to judge the value of speed work to your accomplishments. I guess running a slower 1500 without speed work is the most important observation here. Certainly speed work has an important place in 1500/mile training. Almost certainly the same can be said for 5K training.

Thanks again for your reply.

J.O. wrote:

Another poster denying the importance of kicking flat out at the end of workouts.

Look guys, you can only use your kick at the end of a race if you practice doing just that. You always have your fastest twitch fibers there waiting to be used in the last 200-300m but learning to kick hard at the end of a hard race require specific training.

Keep on spending all that training time working on your 8th place "kick".

We do 50 meter sprints IN SPIKES at the end of workouts just like the Ethiopians, and I think people here largely miss the boat about this.

It's not just about kicking 52 at the end of a 10000, although that matters if you want to compete internationally. There are primarily two ways to increase RE: run longer or run faster. When you sprint, you train to run more explosively and reduce GCT, which is a significant part of RE. It doesn't just improve the last 400 of a 10000: It improves the other 9600m as well.

"FredB", there are 3 things that you need to know:

1. The FB posts at MT are still there. :)

2. The initial FB posts here can still be looked at by some, even though they are long gone.

3. LR saw those things.

Have a nice day! :)

Jack Wagon wrote:

"FredB", there are 3 things that you need to know:

1. The FB posts at MT are still there. :)

2. The initial FB posts here can still be looked at by some, even though they are long gone.

3. LR saw those things.

Have a nice day! :)

Jack,

I'm not sure what you mean by #1. As for #2, you are right that they can still be viewed. In fact, I will re-post those deleted posts below for all to see. And you are 100% correct about #3.

Have a nice day.

Fred

This post originally appeared on page 1 of this thread prior to the first post by "Jack Wagon".

I have to agree with those recommending a variety of pacing for 5K workouts. I'm a big fan of Peter Coe (among others) and he always touted touching on a variety of speeds during training. Thus, even 5K runners should do some sprinting. I think this is common knowledge among coaches.

This post originally appeared on page 1 of this thread in response to "Jack Wagon".

FredB wrote:

I think this is common knowledge among coaches.

Jack Wagon wrote:

Here we go agin.

Not sure what you mean by that. Perhaps I should have been more specific and said it is common knowledge among those coaches familiar with Coe's training? I guess I just assumed most coaches would be familiar with him.

You may want to read a book called "Better Training for Endurance Runners". It was co-authored by Peter Coe and David Martin. It is a terrific read and will help you better understand Coe's philosophy regarding this topic.

This post originally appeared on page 1 of this thread in response to "ejotic".

eojtlc wrote:

I'm not sure that it is common knowledge. I even ran my mile pr in the winter off of base work. I probably could have run faster given more attempts in the spring, but I did run one 1500, and it was slower than I ran with no speed work whatsoever.

I appreciate your reply to my post. As for the "common knowledge" suggestion, please read my clarification above.

Running a mile PR off base training is not unheard of. Without knowing anything about your previous training program, however -- especially with respect to training for 1 mile races -- it is hard to judge the value of speed work to your accomplishments. I guess running a slower 1500 without speed work is the most important observation here. Certainly speed work has an important place in 1500/mile training. Almost certainly the same can be said for 5K training.

Thanks again for your reply.

I've come to many of the same conclusions in all my years of running/coaching. If one follows the Coe-Martin zones model, I'm convinced that "aerobic capacity" is the fastest thing required for 5000m. And I'm convinced that 2 "hard" sessions per week is optimal.

Some people have talked about "sprinting" near the end. At the top of the world, in a tactical 5000m, we might see a 25sec last 200m at the extreme? Those guys can average 31sec per 200m, so the very fastest 200m finish for them might be 6sec faster than 5000m pace. How does that translate for most of us? If I'm a 17:30 guy, average 42sec per 200m, might I expect to kick it in at 35-36sec 200m IF the race is tactical? IF I have done the required endurance work? I don't need to practise "sprinting" for that.

Discuss. :)

What you DO need to do is practice situational sprinting; specifically, sprinting when you're tired. Sprinting at the beginning of a race and at the end of a race are two very different things.

When my athletes do a hard base session -- hills, for example -- they often finish at the track for an all out 200/300/400. Similarly when doing VO2max intervals, or something similar, my athletes are encouraged to do the last one all out. This helps acclimate their bodies to running fast when they are tired, i.e. at the end of a race.

CJC wrote:

What do you guys think about doing only slower stuff? For example, I am thinking of doing a training program almost exclusively based off of threshold repeat sessions (ex 10 x 1000m @ threshold or 6 x mile @ threshold or longer tempo runs at near threshold pace). Do you think that this type of training could produce good 5000m results or will the actual pace of a race be too much of a shock to my system?

I think you would benefit from doing the 10x1k somewhere between LT and 10k pace. In his training book Anders Garderud advocates this.

FredB,

That makes a lot of sense. I would not have guessed that there was context to the "common knowledge" comment that you made originally that would completely change the meaning.

I will clarify a little from my story, and it was that when I ran my 1500 that I was comparing to my indoor mile pr, it was outdoors, with a little speed work, and certainly more pace work. The point I was making was that when I ran some speed work, the result was a slower 1500 than I had run in a pure base mode. And I don't think I need to say this, but it is letsrun, the 1500 wasn't actually slower as in 4:05 when I ran a 4:04 mile, it just coverts slower, like 3:50 when i ran a 4:04 mile. (times made up)

Skuj, the basic point you made is very similar to my philosophy on kicking. At my best level, in a 5k, if I closed in 26 I would win every tactical race I entered, and 28 would be very competitive. I never needed to train specifically to run that fast, I had it naturally. Also, so do did pretty much everyone with similar 5k prs. So what determines who has the best kick, among other things it is your strength. Other factors are freshness, being properly tapered, a little luck, proper tactics and positioning. Raw speed has very little to do with it.

Finally, I want to reiterate that I am not saying no speed work is ever necessary. Just that it is less important than a lot of people make it out to be and that you can kick with the best without doing it.