5000m Specialists: What Is The Fastest You Need To Do In Training?

Skuj wrote:

3000m pace? (So called VO2 max sessions?) 1500m pace? Canova hill sprints? 5000m pace?

Discuss.

(Assume you don't care about anything except for the 5000m event.)

All of them at some point in your training plan. Its not what you do but when you do it.

Agreed. You need to touch on all aspects with your training including max speed stuff. We do 30m flies typically once per week for the duration of the season. While this is obviously not the main focus of our training, it is still considered an integral part of our preparation for 5K racing.

When I ran my fastest 5k's the very fastest I ran in training was close to 3k pace, but usually more like 5k minus a second a lap. Even that pace wasn't for the full workout, it was for maybe one or two reps at the end. Also, these were not really traditional Vo2 max workouts, too much recovery. We never did anything at 1500 pace, except maybe a 200 here and there at the end of a workout, or strides.

Later in my career I worked with a coach that really emphasized the Vo2 and speed work and I consistently underperformed. I think this kind of work has it's place but is meant to be used sparingly. If I were still training full time and focusing only on the 5k, I would probably never do a full workout at 1500 pace. I would do one or two workouts a month that focused on 3k pace.

Flat out at the end of workouts and some all out sprints.

All track runners need to be able to sprint at the end don't they?

Definitely some mile pace and probably some 800 speed. My best 5K, 5000s included once a week doing fast fartlek workouts (often barefoot on soccer fields and such), where I would do about something like set 1 or 2 min reps at mile effort; then close with some very fast 30 to 35 sec reps, at 800 effort to practice closing fast.

Skuj wrote:3000m pace? (So called VO2 max sessions?) 1500m pace? Canova hill sprints? 5000m pace?

Discuss.

(Assume you don't care about anything except for the 5000m event.)

This is a fairly narrow question, isn't it? How importat is it to know the fastest pace you might use in training? Is it even an important question? I doubt it. You might include some strong 100m strides, and these could approach up to 400m pace on occasion. Or Canova hill sprints, again, might approach that sort of speed/effort. But do you really think that exact pace is ain important determinant in the overall success of an effective 5k training program? I don't.

Pete wrote:

do you really think that exact pace is ain important determinant in the overall success of an effective 5k training program? I don't.

I do. Depends how serious you are? All the other running you do is influenced by how fast you can run and how long you can hold that pace. Think Kenenisa Bekele, and you might see what I mean?

I felt I was my most fit for 5k when I was doing quarters at mile pace. It really cleans up form and helps you stay more relaxed at 5k pace when you are doing quarters with sufficient rest. For example, if you want to run a 5k in 68-70, you need to be able to run comfortably at that pace for a good 10 minutes. Hitting some 62's for quarters will make that pace feel so much easier than if you were training longer repeats closer to race pace.

Depends on whether you want to be a time trialer or a racer, I guess. If you are looking to run the fastest time you are capable of running, you're probably better off doing a whole lot of aerobic work and running even spits for your 5K. In this case, you probably don't need to go much faster than 3K pace in training.

If you want to actually race, you have to be ready to throw down at the end of a race off of a slower pace when the need arises. In this case, you should be doing some faster stuff. I wouldn't do much volume at the faster paces, but maybe I'd occasionally finish off a workout with a couple of quick 200s. Earlier in the season 800 pace is probably the fastest you need to go. Toward the end, maybe occasionally throw end a couple of top end 200s or 150s.

True, but flat out sprinting when both fresh and tired are very important. Look how fast the best 5000 runners male and female are at the end of races. It's not real speed compared to a sprinter, but it is real speed endurance.

Their speed over 100 is something they can hold for 250-300m at the end of races.

I use max speed running nearly all season(Canova style hill sprints), runs around half-marathon pace. For my faster workouts, I keep it between 90-110% of race speed with having it more like 95-105% of race speed during the peaking phase.

J.O. wrote:

Flat out at the end of workouts and some all out sprints.

All track runners need to be able to sprint at the end don't they?

How can you allow yourself to "sprint" at the end of a 5k though? Is this really a question of endurance mostly? ie Feeling well at the bell?

You never let me down Pete.

FredB wrote:

I have to agree with those recommending a variety of pacing for 5K workouts. I'm a big fan of Peter Coe (among others) and he always touted touching on a variety of speeds during training. Thus, even 5K runners should do some sprinting. I think this is common knowledge among coaches.

I'm not sure that it is common knowledge. I even ran my mile pr in the winter off of base work. I probably could have run faster given more attempts in the spring, but I did run one 1500, and it was slower than I ran with no speed work whatsoever.

In the distances, strength = speed. At my best I was a fairly high level college athlete and I was able to close down tactical 5ks in 57-60 seconds for the last 400. This was very competitive at the level I ran at and I was consistently able to place at or above my seed level based on pr in a tactical race. The fastest I ever ran in training was maybe 61-62 second pace. I don't have great natural speed either, my fastest 400 ever (in high school) was 54 on a relay split. I'm not sure I could have run a faster 400 in college if I had tried.

So how does a guy with moderate (at best) speed close with the fastest guys at his level? By being really strong. The key to my kick was weekly 40 minute tempos starting in the winter all the way through mid track season. After that it was pace work, 90-100% of race pace, and very occasional work at 3k pace or maybe a little faster, the 61-62 second pace.

I'm not saying that this is the only way to do it. I'm just refuting the idea that 800 pace work or all out 200's are necessary to kick in a 5k.

I think you will find many world class 5000m people who never cared for "anaerobic capacity sessions" a la Coe/Martin. I really appreciate your post and would love to read about more experiences in this area.

Skuj,

Not sure what you are looking for as far as expansion, but I can add some additional thoughts. If you have specific questions I can do my best to answer from my experiences.

When most people who understand at least a little about training hear the interval workouts I was doing and what I ran on the track from them they are amazed. The general reaction is that I never lived up to my talent and if I had done real work I would have been much faster. These people fail to see the proverbial forest for the trees.

I took a stab at post collegiate running and decided for a variety of reasons to work with another, very well established and respected coach. In this program I continued with lots of tempo runs through the winter, I increased my mileage moderately, and added lots of hard Vo2 work and what I would consider speed work. Some sample workouts would include 4 x mile going from 95-105% of 5k race pace, 16 x 400 at 3k race pace w/min rest, lots of hill repeats. I frequently ran 300s in 42-43, 200s in 28, 500s in 71-72 and 600s in 87-88.

Now, there are a lot of variables in training and racing, I had some minor injury issues as a post collegiate that may or may not have been a result of the training. However, in two years of this type of running my body never responded. The closest I came to my 5k pr was 20 seconds slower. I'm sure the reasons for this are many, but as running was my life and I had never experienced this kind of extended difficulty I have put a lot of thought into it.

I believe that the workouts were part of the reason for my failure as a post collegiate. It wasn't however just the content of the workouts but the frequency and intensity of the workouts. I went to the well too deep and too often in training, this was a result partially of coaching and partially of my own stupidity and arrogance, maybe a little stubbornness in there too. Throw in a couple of ill timed injury issues and you have a good recipe for racing poorly.

My conclusion is that if you can train yourself to be an aerobic monster you don't need much fast stuff to close down races very close to you maximum foot speed. I believe that traditional Vo2 and speed work has it's place but should be used sparingly and lightly as a supplement to the more important work.

If you have more questions you can feel free to ask. I check LRC semi-frequently or you can email me on the condition of maintaining my anonymity on the board when I respond.

Thank you so much, very much appreciate your insight/experience with this topic. (My previous expansion comment was for all others, sorry for confusion.) I may have specific questions for you later today, thanks. Excellent posts here, thank you.

What do you guys think about doing only slower stuff? For example, I am thinking of doing a training program almost exclusively based off of threshold repeat sessions (ex 10 x 1000m @ threshold or 6 x mile @ threshold or longer tempo runs at near threshold pace). Do you think that this type of training could produce good 5000m results or will the actual pace of a race be too much of a shock to my system?

CJC wrote:

What do you guys think about doing only slower stuff? For example, I am thinking of doing a training program almost exclusively based off of threshold repeat sessions (ex 10 x 1000m @ threshold or 6 x mile @ threshold or longer tempo runs at near threshold pace). Do you think that this type of training could produce good 5000m results or will the actual pace of a race be too much of a shock to my system?

Yes, although a few races and light pace session (16-24 x 200 at gp /w slow 200 rest) might be necessary