USATF Strikes Again

That's rough... hope this gets settled and he can compete.

At least Lagat could run for Kenya while he waited out the waiting period.

It doesn't sound like a USTAF problem. It sounds like IAAF trying to stifle country flipping athletes. Three years does seem like a lot to me when athletes are seldom at their peak that long. The fact that he is in the military does make it smell pretty bad however. The guy could end up in Afghanistan before he could run for the US.

The relevant issue here isn't the IAAF rule about international representation, it's USATF deciding that applying that rule means he can't run in national championships that select teams for international meets during the waiting period.

Hey Now! wrote:

A quote from a NY Times Article I just found: "Chirlee must be kept out of Saturday’s field, including the armed forces subdivision, Geer said, because he could affect the outcome of the overall race. Geer said that based on race tactics — if, for example, Chirlee set an unusually fast early pace — he could cause other runners in the field to try to match his pace, which could negatively influence their strategy or performance, altering the tenor of the race." -Jill Geer, the chief public affairs officer for the organization (USATF)

The Article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/04/sports/04runner.html?_r=1&ref=sports

Discuss.

This reasoning seems a bit weak. Based on this should people be competing if they have no intention of racing World XC's? I remember Culpepper used to do that quite often, he won at least once and then didn't go to World's. Not to debate that but it's an example of someone "pushing the pace" that could potentially affect who makes the team.

Can Jill\'s husband\'s band get paid to alter the tenor of the race?

Lane Pryce wrote:

This reasoning seems a bit weak. Based on this should people be competing if they have no intention of racing World XC's? I remember Culpepper used to do that quite often, he won at least once and then didn't go to World's. Not to debate that but it's an example of someone "pushing the pace" that could potentially affect who makes the team.

There's a slight but understandable difference between this guy's situation and someone like Culpepper's. This guy is definitely not going to World XC whether he wins or loses. Culpepper might change his mind or he might not, there's no way to know prior to his decision. But perhaps they should make it more mandatory to go to World XC for Culpepper-type people. Maybe they could penalize you or ban you from the race next year if you don't go on to World XC.

They should also find a way to crack down on DNFs and guys only being in the race to pace other people (that aren't official rabbits).

Pop the Trunk!

Meaning: Bandit the race. I'm sure he could kick anyone's ass who tried to get him off course.

Geer and USTAF simply are not qualified to understand this element dialog.

They neither can support or debate the issue , only read from the rule book that a volunteer proposed to be a rule vs a strategic implementation of item that could help the sport or a individual.

The rule does alter the tenor of the race , it waters it down , the best team is not selected.

I am a former Army officer and am pulling for this guy in the OTs next year. He is definitely a dark horse.

USATF can change their rule to allow US citizens to run.

The USATF rule was discussed on Let's Run back in December (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3814431&page=0), and exactly this situation was predicted back then. So Let's Run is about 2 months ahead of the NY Times

As I pointed out then:

Most things are complicated. This one is, to me, simple. Once you are a citizen of the United States, you have the same rights as any other US citizen*. US citizenship does not "phase in" over time. Citizen for a day or citizen for a century, you have the same rights.

So USATF should not discriminate on the basis of duration of citizenship. I have a hard time imagining that doing so is legal. Heck, if USATF asked me how long I had been a US citizen, I'd tell them it was none of their g-d- business.

That an international body (IAAF) does discriminate on the basis of duration of citizenship does NOT give a US organization (the USATF) the right to do so.

*=The one exception to the "all citizens are equal" rule is, of course, that the President and Vice-President must be natural-born citizens. But that's a pretty tiny exception, really.

And I'd add now that the USATF PR person Geer's argument about race tactics is ridiculous. *Anybody* in the race can potentially alter the race. That's an inherent part of racing.

And regardless, when did hypothetical concerns about "the tenor of a race" trump the rights of citizenship??

This needs to be discussed or addressed at a higher level - the courts/congress/etc. USATF is wayyyy out of control

Maybe we get a court order to stop the event and send a message.

I will fund it if someone can tell me how to proceed.

Please do. What a joke this is. Just another fake "national championship" put on by USATF, looks like.

When did the rule change? Way a back when, Peter Snell ran in our AAU championships. Even during the TAC days of the 1980's they had foreign runners competing. They wouldn't count as "US champions". Again these were foreign runners and this guy is a citizen!

The guy just wants to run and compete. If he's ineligible for the Worlds, then just give his spot to the next placer.

I posted this under the wrong thread. I meant to post it here. The other was bit nasty. Sorry for the duplicate post.

Having coached military teams in the past I have seen many foreign USA Military members. You do not need to be an American citizen or promise to become one to join. You just need to swear allegiance to the USA.

Some who join eventually become citizen, some don't. The reasons they join are varied. Most a job skill, benefits for them and their families, and that can mean extended families if they can prove they are dependent on the individual military member. I have seen mother's, father's grandparents, brother's and sister's etc become dependents of a single person. They are all eligible for benefits.

Quite a few joined when there was no conflict and no worries about being sent overseas. It was a good way to get started in the USA and be legal and not on public assistance. This has been happening since the end of World War II. In this day anyone who speaks Arabic or many of the African dialects is a desired recruit.

As to the USATF's rules, it is the same as many other countries and not unreasonable. It keeps out people who are not only ineligible but who may interfere and knock out an eligible person for a team. I mean "knock out" as in impede, trip up etc. It was one reason for the rule change years ago when we did allow foreigners and non-eligible people to compete in National meets where we picked international teams. There were some ugly race tactics going on. Purposely trying to keep our best runners from making a team. Cold War on the track!! We learned the hard way.

Read more:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3901262#ixzz1CyzOeIrM

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Yeah - you wouldn't want the pace being pushed unduly fast early on when you're selecting a team for the world XC. That's a race with a really slow start....

#USATFFAIL

This is pathetic. Let the man compete in the national champs like any other American. Who cares that he can't go to Worlds, most of our best runners don't go anyway.

And who gives a flying f*** if he "alters the tenor of the race?" What if Ritz or Abdi or whoever ran and won and didn't go to Worlds? Would USATF then be giving them sh** for "altering the tenor of the race"? This race isn't just a selection process for worlds, it is the race that decides who is the best American cross-country runner for the season. Chirlee deserves a shot at proving himself, regardless of wether or not he can go to Worlds.

As another poster pointed out, it is tremendously ironic Jill Geer used setting an "unusually fast early pace" as her example for Chirlee's potential impact. Is he really going to go out faster than all the top East Africans? By setting an "unusually fast early pace" he would probably be improving the selection process. Sometimes I can't believe the crap that USATF spews out.

I seem to recall that Kara Goucher ran the 5000m in the 2009 USATF outdoors, even though she had indicated that she would run in the marathon in Berlin and not the 5000m. Did she knock out or impede any eligible person? Perhaps she should have been barred from running that race? I'm sure there are plenty of other examples too.