Junk Master wrote:
Instead of "sit and kick," it's, "sit and track."
oh yeah? there's a online tracker for Boston, right? we can track him with live play by play coverage here in the KL thread!!!! :)
Rojo says he might start a Kip Litton thread but only 1 and only 1 thread
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oh yeah? there's a online tracker for Boston, right? we can track him with live play by play coverage here in the KL thread!!!! :) -
I love the idea of shirts, it would be awesome to get as many people to wear them... heck even get them in the yellow and blue Boston colors. If I was running Boston I would chip in and get one!
If we can track him live, has anyone thought about calling the BAA during the race when he goes off the course... in other words report his cheating when it is happening? -
Loofa Dog wrote:
If I was running Boston I would chip in and get one!
You would CHIP IN???
nice pun! -
The problem here is that Kip is a fairly good runner without cheating. He has now had a year to train and if I were to guess, I'd say he is training his butt off so he can run a legitimate time in a marathon (and allow people to follow him). Once done, he'll announce that he never cheated.
Even if he runs 3:05, that would be good enough for him to claim that he ran sub 3 when he was younger (last year) or that he had an off day.
Doing 400s on the track? For a guy who doesn't race, this is unheard of.
Just a guess. -
No way he can do a 3:05 now. If he's tracked he'll try and do 1/2 at 3:05 ish pace and then grab a hamstring like he's a New York Giant.
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Don't be a Kip hater. He's proven he'll do whatever it takes to cross the finish line in a decent time.
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Loofa Dog wrote:
I love the idea of shirts, it would be awesome to get as many people to wear them... heck even get them in the yellow and blue Boston colors. If I was running Boston I would chip in and get one!
If we can track him live, has anyone thought about calling the BAA during the race when he goes off the course... in other words report his cheating when it is happening?
http://www.4verichip.com/ -
I found this thread a few weeks ago and I've been engrossed by it. I've told the story to a few people and they all respond with the same mix of intrigue and disbelief.
One thing that I can't quite pin down is why Kip cheats (if indeed he does) and why he does it repeatedly. It shows some serious obsessive behavior. I could totally understand cheating once to get into Boston but this guy supposedly has a string of dozens of races that he actually went to just to cheat.
Does anyone know why? -
Can't help you with why, but inventing fictional races and fictional results takes it way beyond cheating.
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categorically wrote:
One thing that I can't quite pin down is why Kip cheats (if indeed he does) and why he does it repeatedly. It shows some serious obsessive behavior. Does anyone know why?
Why? Because there's an unfathomably deep & serious flaw in his moral constitution. I can't imagine a better explanation - unless he were to add, 'Because I thought I could get away w/it,' which would be true to a point. -
scotth wrote:
Why? Because there's an unfathomably deep & serious flaw in his moral constitution. I can't imagine a better explanation - unless he were to add, 'Because I thought I could get away w/it,' which would be true to a point.
The sheer compulsiveness with which he's pursued cheating really speaks more to some kind of mental illness than to systematic willful dishonesty. Someone who cheats once or twice for palpable gain and slinks back into the shadows with his ill-gotten booty is a dirtbag. A guy who keeps cheating even after he's been caught and knows the whole running world's watching probably has some psychopathology. I grant that the line between basic assholism, DSM-IV-worthy personality disorders, and true mental disorders can be hazy. -
His cheating ways have pretty much stopped since the KL saga blew up on letsrun.com this year. Kip does not seem to have raced at all since the Charlotte Thunder Road Marathon on 12/11/2010. So maybe he repeatedly did it only because he was largely getting away with it but now people are onto it.
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People have been onto Kip for well over a year. Go to: kiplitton.blogspot.com and take a look. It's like an 84 car wreck in the fog.
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they may have been onto him but nowhere near as much as they are this year
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I was thinking that it would end up being taxes. He probably set up world record run as a non-profit so he can make big donations to it out of his personal income. The organization had to look legit so he based it around running - something he was pretty good at. Then he had to keep doing races to make all the expenses look legit.
If he's this big of a cheater then I'm sure marathoning isn't the only thing he's cheating. And the one thing that everyone cheats on is taxes. -
Loofa Dog wrote:
I love the idea of shirts, it would be awesome to get as many people to wear them... heck even get them in the yellow and blue Boston colors. If I was running Boston I would chip in and get one!
If we can track him live, has anyone thought about calling the BAA during the race when he goes off the course... in other words report his cheating when it is happening?
The on-line tracking won't work, in my opinion. He has become very adept at finding the mats, somehow getting them to register his chip by running, biking, walking or driving over them (or near them) and then moving on the the next mat by his favorite non-running method.
The chip mats are quite sensitive. At Missoula, when I spoke with one of the organizers early on about my suspicion that Kip had cheated, he told me that the race announcer had taken a few unclaimed chips to the starting line to give to runners who arrived at midnight the previous night. All but one chip were handed out. When the announcer got all set up on the scaffolding catwalk 15 feet above the finish line and they turned on the chip sensor, the remaining chip in his pocket kept making the finish line mat beep any time he moved.
I think Kip knows that all he has to do is get near the mat to register his passage by that part of the course. At Boston in 2010, he registered at all the mats, but somehow managed to never be photographed (except when accidentally caught skulking slowly by one of the mats in a full black sweatsuit). At many marathons, including Thunder Road, which he may have used to qualify himself for Boston, it is insanely easy to cheat, as they advertise the locations of the mats: "Timing mats will be located at the start, 10K mark, 13.1 mile mark, 20 mile mark and the finish. Runners who do not register a split time at one of the checkpoints will be subject to disqualification." (Why use them as checkpoints if you're goiing to tell the cheaters where they are?!) In addition, the layout of the course is perfect for a cheater like Litton: http://www.runcharlotte.com/2010maps/TRM2010_MarathonMap.pdf
There are only two solutions to this problem at Boston, in my opinion. One is to connect with the BAA race organizers about the situation and have his entry rejected, given that he obviously didn't run any of the possible marathons he used to qualify. Surely someone monitoring this thread knows someone who has the ear of a BAA official. The second (much more difficult, if not impossible) is to locate him at the start or one of the early chip mats and follow him.
The business of being a race director is obviously a thankless job sometimes. I have only organized a couple of very small races in Montana, and it takes a huge amount of work. But if I could be allowed to vent for a few paragraphs - I just can't understand the perspective that so many race directors have about disqualification.
Why go to all the trouble of having any controls at all if people like Kip Litton can make such a mockery of them. In 2010, I personally spoke with the RD's at a number of his marathons and the consistent reply to the overwhelming evidence (lack of photos and reports by finishers close behind that he never passed them) was "Well - I'm really suspicious, but he registered at all of the chip mats, so I can't disqualify him." Sure you can disqualify him!!
In the old days, when I was running races in the 70's and 80's, if your number wasn't showing, you'd be disqualified - end of story! I can recall lots of races when I'd pass by four or five volunteers during a race who were writing down numbers as runners passed by. Kip Litton doesn't show up in hardly any of the race photos (except at the finish line) for any of the marathons he's run, while other runners who finished near him show up in all of the photos. Runners near the front who have provided personal testimony that Kip never passed them have still not been able to convince RD's to remove him from the results.
At races I've helped with in Montana, we frequently use borrowed digital video cameras to tape the race. If there is ever a question about a runner, we always have the video showing who passed by a certain point in the course. Running a race is a privelege, not a right, and as such, RD's need to get their heads out of the sand and be willing to enforce higher standards. If you talk to any big marathon race director, he or she will tell you about the nightmare of runners cheating to qualify for Boston. The problem is far more widespread than the pathetic story of Kippy Cheaterpants. But nothing is going to change unless RD's are willing to get a bit more tough.
I'm a professor at a small college who deals with academic integrity violations four or five times each year. Students who are suspected of cheating have to prove their innocence beyond a reasonable doubt, not the other way around. I love the U. S. legal system, but in running and academics, the burden of proof is on the accused, not the accuser. I'm so fed up with our society's washed-out moral and ethical standards of behavior. If we all don't start holding ourselves to a higher standard, especially we runners, our future looks bleak indeed.
There. I've said my piece. -
Well said Mr. Ouch.
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Kevin52 wrote:
Well said Mr. Ouch.
I agree, Mr Ouch officially wins the internet. -
ouch1000 wrote:
At many marathons, including Thunder Road, which he may have used to qualify himself for Boston, it is insanely easy to cheat, as they advertise the locations of the mats: "Timing mats will be located at the start, 10K mark, 13.1 mile mark, 20 mile mark and the finish. Runners who do not register a split time at one of the checkpoints will be subject to disqualification." (Why use them as checkpoints if you're goiing to tell the cheaters where they are?!) In addition, the layout of the course is perfect for a cheater like Litton: http://www.runcharlotte.com/2010maps/TRM2010_MarathonMap.pdf
Why go to all the trouble of having any controls at all if people like Kip Litton can make such a mockery of them. In 2010, I personally spoke with the RD's at a number of his marathons and the consistent reply to the overwhelming evidence (lack of photos and reports by finishers close behind that he never passed them) was "Well - I'm really suspicious, but he registered at all of the chip mats, so I can't disqualify him." Sure you can disqualify him!!
I contacted the Thunder Road director last year and he said pretty much what you note, 'Not enough evidence', despite all the evidence I provided him like splits that simply made no sense & Kip's past behavior. He shared correspondence w/me from Kip that was a bit like wading thru 4' of mud, one where he failed to prove his innocence. Another race here in MI simply refused to pull the trigger on a DQ after I pointed out the discrepancies in Kip's times and the word of a witness. These races fear controversy/or legal action, needlessly. -
We have waited long enough. This post if for the readers who have unwittingly believed the character assassination here. For those who have joined in on the bashing, we will not refute your RUNNING related claims so you need not respond. Being infantile, no doubt you will though. Since there has been much speculation here about Kip's life ASIDE from running, we will address that only. Since the trashing posts have gone unchecked, readers have only opinions from people who have never met Kip upon which to form their own opinion.
We will give you perspective from people who actually KNOW Kip. We are a group who have known him from 7 to 34 years. We have gotten to know Kip and his family intimately through business, church, school, running and other social circles. Many of the previous posts here can not be proved either way, so we will only speak to our personal experience with Kip.
He is the rare type of person who makes you feel better after spending time with him. He is intelligent, selfless, witty, charitable, modest, caring, generous to a fault and passionately devoted to both his beautiful wife of over 20 years and his children. He has been recognized many times for his integrity, excellence in his profession and philanthropic efforts both in time and money with many organizations. He has been well respected in the community for over 20 years, loved by his patients and adored by his friends and family. Those of us us who have known him the longest can say in all those years there has never been a single time when his moral character has come into question. Your bashing is not ringing true with anyone that actually knows him. We and many others support Kip and his entire family in his hour of need with the diagnosis of his kids and any other tragedy that may befall him.
