How do I get a runner to lift up their legs more (if that's a good thing) and not "shuffle" so much?

a shuffler who lifts wrote:

what really now wrote:

jr26run....

just to make sure,

you do agree that pushing off the ground harder leads to faster running, right?

F=ma?

Shouldn't we "lift" off the ground, rather than "push"?

how do you get any sort of locomotion by lifting? you dont.

you can however increase the force of your pushoff by starting your bent knee at a higher height. But it's not the lifting thats propelling you, it's the pushing.

also, didnt the OP say that the runner doesnt shuffle while at race pace? only at a jogging pace. whats the big deal. the race is what matters, right?

what really now wrote:

jr26run....

just to make sure,

you do agree that pushing off the ground harder leads to faster running, right?

F=ma?

According to Jack Nirenstein, rather than a push or a lift, it's a vault. I've been experimenting with this the last few weeks and it's working quite well. My training paces are faster with less effort. It's a little hard to explain but works in practice.

The videos of Komen and Tergat show this quite well. I have some old stop action photos of Herb Elliott and Lasse Viren that show they ran this way too. Carlos Lopes, though, hit on his heels in front and had a high back kick, the opposite style from Viren.

Jen Rhines is a shuffler!...an a pretty good one!

You bend/stretch/spring at the ankle (the tendons), but you "lift" off the ground from your knee/quads. "Vaulting"-- that's a good description. I've been running this way for about 5 years (way of thinking about your movement, "lifting" from the knee, springing from the ankle), and I think it's kept me healthier and racing faster.

jr26run wrote:

jr26run wrote:

The foot does land a minimum amount in front of the center of gravity when running at even pace. When picking up speed, the landing is increasingly behind the center of gravity. The speed is a function of the landing position and momentum.

Kneeliftin wrote:No your foot must land in front of your CM even while picking up speed.

Try this, stand in the middle of the room. Now, place one foot on the ground in front of your body and try to go forward. You can't do it, see. This is because to increase your speed, the only way is to fall forward from your feet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVE9-jjkZeo

That has nothing to do with my response I made no claim that you don't fall forward during your landing phase. I claim that you must push up and forward (after falling forward) to return your body to its prior height OR FALL DOWN. Get it now.

It's really just a matter of simple physics. I am baffled at how many so called bio-mechanic experts fail to understand high school physics.

I'm a sprinter so can respond from a "speed" point of view. Sprinters hit the weights in order to develop leg strength to have a more forceful push against the track. The "lift" that you see from high knees is due to the strong push and popping off the track.

Increases in speed generally result from a greater stride length that you get from greater "push", not overstriding. But don't know how this translates into the distance runner shuffle situation.

Kneeliftin wrote:

I claim that you must push up and forward (after falling forward)

Sounds painful.

Pushing vs. Lifting wrote:

I'm a sprinter so can respond from a "speed" point of view. Sprinters hit the weights in order to develop leg strength to have a more forceful push against the track. The "lift" that you see from high knees is due to the strong push and popping off the track.

Increases in speed generally result from a greater stride length that you get from greater "push", not overstriding. But don't know how this translates into the distance runner shuffle situation.

Exactly!!! This is true for all runners not just sprinters.

It is the push off that creates the forward force which propels you forward. High knees are an EFFECT of running fast but are doing nothing toward propelling you forward. Pushing off harder (at the same cadence) will CAUSE you to run faster, increasing your air time, and increasing your stride length.

Too many armchair bio-mechanic experts jump to conclusions immediately, and don't know how to differentiate CAUSE and EFFECT relationships in running mechanics.

Kneeliftin wrote:

Exactly!!! This is true for all runners not just sprinters.

It is the push off that creates the forward force which propels you forward. High knees are an EFFECT of running fast but are doing nothing toward propelling you forward. Pushing off harder (at the same cadence) will CAUSE you to run faster, increasing your air time, and increasing your stride length.

Too many armchair bio-mechanic experts jump to conclusions immediately, and don't know how to differentiate CAUSE and EFFECT relationships in running mechanics.

Hit the nail on the head.

What we see and what goes on are two different things.

For a good review of how it works read this:

You can only push up with the legs, not forward.

Stand on one place, squat down, then push with your legs as hard as you can. You won't go anywhere. If you put one foot in front, the other behind you and again push as hard as you can, you won't go anywhere.

You can only go forward by leaning ahead of your center of gravity, with your feet behind you. This is the only way to go faster.

The foot touches a little in front of the center of gravity when maintaining the same place, but momentum quickly takes the center of gravity ahead of the foot, so the foot on the ground is predominantly behind the body at all speeds, due to momentum and gravity.

Glute medius strengthening is the key.

I agree with SMJO. Firewalking!

jr26run wrote:

You can only push up with the legs, not forward.

Stand on one place, squat down, then push with your legs as hard as you can. You won't go anywhere. If you put one foot in front, the other behind you and again push as hard as you can, you won't go anywhere.

You can only go forward by leaning ahead of your center of gravity, with your feet behind you. This is the only way to go faster.

The foot touches a little in front of the center of gravity when maintaining the same place, but momentum quickly takes the center of gravity ahead of the foot, so the foot on the ground is predominantly behind the body at all speeds, due to momentum and gravity.

No offense but you need to retake High school physics before giving any further advice on how running mechanics work.

Gravity acts downward and doesn't do anything to push you forward. Yes leaning forward is required to run forward.

This is because your trailing push off leg must apply the forward force behind your center of mass to push your center of mass forward. Again you are misidentifying what is CAUSING you to go forward.

i see your point, but surely pushing off harder DOES make you go faster. However, the push must be behind your center of gravity.

Of course it does.

Every stride is really just a small jump. Stride rates are unbelievably similar for nearly every distance runner. So the fast you go, the farther each little jump is in distance.[quote]what really now wrote:

Clockme wrote:

Stride rates are unbelievably similar for nearly every distance runner.

That is not true at all.

There is a wide range of stride rates for distance runners.

Check any video of Olympic distance runners, and you will see that every runner has a different stride rate, even running the same speed.

It might be efficient for that particular person. Hard to say.

Liberal Runner wrote:

Try this:

Tell them when aerobic running, they should lift their feet AS HIGH AS THEIR ANKLES.

Tell them when tempo running, they should lift their feet AS HIGH AS THEIR CALVES.

Tell them when speed running, they should lift their feet NEARLY AS HIGH AS THEIR KNEES.

This is actually decent advice. I'd only add that for lopers, it is usually a natural gait to lift their feet calf high even during aerobic running. Just leave them be and don't try to "fix" it.

dartmoth graduate wrote:

It might be efficient for that particular person. Hard to say.

You bumped a three year old thread to say that it's hard to say something?