I run around 70 miles a week, doubling up 4 times a week (maybe 5). My long run is only around 12 miles... something I have hit occasionally on the other days but with 2 runs. Some people tell me my long run should be 20%, so at least 14 miles. Should I increase the long run?
ummm what now? wrote:
I run around 70 miles a week, doubling up 4 times a week (maybe 5). My long run is only around 12 miles... something I have hit occasionally on the other days but with 2 runs. Some people tell me my long run should be 20%, so at least 14 miles. Should I increase the long run?
You're perfect.
ummm what now? wrote: Some people tell me my long run should be 20%, so at least 14 miles. Should I increase the long run?
Don't listen to idiots. 10 miles is plenty for a 70mpw runner, especially during the Summer.
what kinda miles for a hs freshmen with above average talent
doubling at 70mpw is a waste of your time.
wasteit wrote:
doubling at 70mpw is a waste of your time.
Posting on an empty brain is a waste of all of our time.
sgh wrote:
what kinda miles for a hs freshmen with above average talent
40-70 (at most)
For a high school freshman you need to focus on genral running conditioning and laying creating a blueprint for when your body matures and is able to handle a higher work load.
Run 6 days a week, alternating 2x day. 2-3 miles in the morning, whatever you're comfortable in the evening.
malmo wrote:
wasteit wrote:doubling at 70mpw is a waste of your time.
Posting on an empty brain is a waste of all of our time.
ok, so the guy is a blunt asshole, but isn't it safe to say that doing the 70 miles in singles will bring you more benefit than doing it in 11 runs a week? 70 miles in singles isn't that much running...
sounds good. he is right at mid 40's. I was going to have him go 7-8 today, but he went 10 (ran with the sr boys). average pace right now is 7:15-7:30. he had no problem at all with the 10.
he is running 3 is easy in the morning, and 5-7 in the evening. All easy now. We are starting soon with tempo runs- should I back him off entirely from these or have him go 15-20 min max for tempos?
He is probably in 18 flat 5k shape right now (at altitude) and could well be under 17 by mid september.
Goal is for him to be competitive as a jr and sr, plus to have a lot fun and enjoy running.
and thank you for your reply
T-man wrote:
ok, so the guy is a blunt asshole, but isn't it safe to say that doing the 70 miles in singles will bring you more benefit than doing it in 11 runs a week? 70 miles in singles isn't that much running...
NO. Whoever put that in your head is wrong.
sgh wrote:
sounds good. he is right at mid 40's. I was going to have him go 7-8 today, but he went 10 (ran with the sr boys). average pace right now is 7:15-7:30. he had no problem at all with the 10.
he is running 3 is easy in the morning, and 5-7 in the evening. All easy now. We are starting soon with tempo runs- should I back him off entirely from these or have him go 15-20 min max for tempos?
He is probably in 18 flat 5k shape right now (at altitude) and could well be under 17 by mid september.
Goal is for him to be competitive as a jr and sr, plus to have a lot fun and enjoy running.
I'd personally back off on the tempos because most kids (and their coaches) will run them too hard. BUT ... if you are going to do tempos 15-20 minutes is great. Summer of malmo addresses this. The entire point of SOM is that kids need a break in the Summer, but not necessarily taking off and certainly not doing just easy running all Summer. A Summer of nothing but easy running will surely cause staleness just as much as increasing the intensity would.
The main thrust of SOM is to give them something short and fast, but not something that will kill them. (repeat 150s, full recovery, etc) then the rest of the running at tempo pace or slower.
My idea here is that a 13:40 -14:00 college runner could actually do repeat 12x 400s at 68 seconds and still be a certified SOM training session. 68s is 4:32 mile pace after all.
Now with a HS freshman there are many factors at work, but mainly: 1) physical maturity, strength and growth 2) cumulative effects of aerobic training 3) cumulative memory and developmemt of the neuromuscular sytem.
I don't think that a HS freshman needs to be doing 5 mile tempo runs. Neither do I think he needs to be doing stuff like 6 x 1 mile. Better to break these repeats down in 400, 600, 800, 1000m, (even 1200) chunks, but still at a very comfortable pace. The point here is to get the kid running faster without breaking him down, and without making it feel like a chore.
malmo, I understand you are more familiar with sub 14 male distance runners, but do you have an idea of what a female distance runner with a 5k PR around 19 min would run these at? Would workouts like say 16x200 be done at 45+ seconds (over 6 min pace)? And workouts like 1200 repeats be done at say, 6:30 pace?
70 in singles might be worth more than 70 in doubles. But if you can do 70 in singles, you can do 80 in doubles. Or the other way, if your doing 70 in doubles, you could only do 60 in singles. Doubles allow you to get in more training time per week a the same stress level on the body.
T-man wrote:
malmo wrote:Posting on an empty brain is a waste of all of our time.
ok, so the guy is a blunt asshole, but isn't it safe to say that doing the 70 miles in singles will bring you more benefit than doing it in 11 runs a week? 70 miles in singles isn't that much running...
what are your thoughts wrote:
malmo, I understand you are more familiar with sub 14 male distance runners, but do you have an idea of what a female distance runner with a 5k PR around 19 min would run these at? Would workouts like say 16x200 be done at 45+ seconds (over 6 min pace)? And workouts like 1200 repeats be done at say, 6:30 pace?
I would probably need some sort of VDOT table and apply a SOM reduction factor to answer you properly. For 1200m I'd suggest that you go at 10k to HM pace, as long as you feel very comfortable.
If you are talking about those short/"fast" repeats that I recommend every other week, then time isn't important. I'd probably recommend you do 150s anyway, and do them like this: 1st 50m accelerate, 2nd 50m close to top speed, 3rd 50m stride out. So for a 200m I'd say accelerate for 100m, close to top speed for 50m, stride out the final 50m.
I could certify 16x200m SOM another way. 200m repeats at 10k pace. Does that make sense at what I'm trying to get you to do here?
dasfasd@hasd.com wrote:
Or the other way, if your doing 70 in doubles, you could only do 60 in singles.
WTF?
Yes, makes sense, thank you. I just did my first SOM workout, some 1200 repeats and overestimated my fitness and went out too fast (though it felt comfortable on the first rep). Paid for it as my next repeats were all around the same pace but considerably slower. I won't be doing that again.
Would you also say that the time is the important thing? That is, running around 5 minutes for a repeat is a "sweet spot"? So for some runners, that may be mile repeats while for others that may be 1200 repeats?
I was planning to start out with 12-16x150, then 2 weeks later do 12-16x200, then 2 weeks later once again do 16-20x 150.
what are your thoughts wrote:
Yes, makes sense, thank you. I just did my first SOM workout, some 1200 repeats and overestimated my fitness and went out too fast (though it felt comfortable on the first rep). Paid for it as my next repeats were all around the same pace but considerably slower. I won't be doing that again.
Would you also say that the time is the important thing? That is, running around 5 minutes for a repeat is a "sweet spot"? So for some runners, that may be mile repeats while for others that may be 1200 repeats?
I was planning to start out with 12-16x150, then 2 weeks later do 12-16x200, then 2 weeks later once again do 16-20x 150.
3-5 minutes is about the right duration for the repeats -- 6 x 3min, 5 x 4min, 4 x 5min. I'd suggest that you keep the recovery short, say half the time of the repeat. That should keep you from running too fast. And I also suggest that, during the summer, don't do them on the track. Find a nice bit of grass, and learn to judge effort.
what are your thoughts wrote:
Yes, makes sense, thank you. I just did my first SOM workout, some 1200 repeats and overestimated my fitness and went out too fast (though it felt comfortable on the first rep). Paid for it as my next repeats were all around the same pace but considerably slower. I won't be doing that again.
Perhaps I should just start an ongoing Q&A thread for individuals attempting SOM?
HAH! The spirit of SOM would be to instantly correct yourself after the 2nd or 3rd rep. For instance, after that first 1200, you could have immediately switched to 800s or 400s at the same pace you were trying to run the 1200. The important thing is to be comfortable and controlled. Some people might say they are champing at the bit because it feels so easy. My reaction is, if you are champing at the bit, and you cannot relax, then remove the bridle.
what are your thoughts wrote:
Would you also say that the time is the important thing? That is, running around 5 minutes for a repeat is a "sweet spot"? So for some runners, that may be mile repeats while for others that may be 1200 repeats?
Actually time isn't that important as pace. Slower than you'd ever dream you need to go, completely relaxed and in control.
what are your thoughts wrote:
I was planning to start out with 12-16x150, then 2 weeks later do 12-16x200, then 2 weeks later once again do 16-20x 150.
That sounds exactly as I prescribed. Just remember, complete recovery. Walk if you have to. Think of these things are longer strides, not a ball-busting interval session.
70 miles in singles isn't that much running...[/quote]
In Florida, south Georgia, etc. a 10 mile run every day is tough in the current hot, humid conditions. Elite runners could do more, but it would be a challenging summer program for most high schoolers.
Malmo,
Would not a biweekly longer run of up to 15 miles be beneficial in a SOM? I know you're not big on long runs but 10 miles is not very long even for a kid in HS. Also what about the occasional short road race like 5km in the SOM?