Ritz, Hall and Webb- Year by Year Comparisons

If the McMillan Running Calculator is to be believed, Hall's 59:43 is the most impressive, although 12:56 comes close (59:43 for half = 12:55 for 5k and 3:43.8 for mile). McMillan's calculator seems to be a bit skewed towards faster mid-distance equivalents, though.

irun wrote:

3:46.91, 12:56.27, or 59:43/2:06:17?

Which is most impressive?

I say 12:56. It sends a bigger message, in my opinion.

Teg was in that class wrote:

If you remember Teg was in that class, that gives you another AR (2 miles). Only 3k and 10k records left...

Tegenkamp graduated high school a year before them.

ooooh i see wrote:

If the McMillan Running Calculator is to be believed, Hall's 59:43 is the most impressive, although 12:56 comes close (59:43 for half = 12:55 for 5k and 3:43.8 for mile). McMillan's calculator seems to be a bit skewed towards faster mid-distance equivalents, though.

irun wrote:

3:46.91, 12:56.27, or 59:43/2:06:17?

Which is most impressive?

I say 12:56. It sends a bigger message, in my opinion.

McMillan's running calculator is the worst one I've ever seen. 59:43 (over a minute off of the wr) and 12:55 (18 seconds off of the world record) are in no way equal to 3:43 for the mile.

some sample bullshit:

1:41 for 800m=2:06:05, 59:47 and 12:56?

3:26 for 1500m=12:49 for 5000m?

10.00 for 100m=1:31 for 800m and 1:54 for the marathon as well as a 3:23 mile.

12:37=3:38 for the mile and 7:14 for 3000m?

irun wrote:

3:46.91, 12:56.27, or 59:43/2:06:17?

Which is most impressive?

I say 12:56. It sends a bigger message, in my opinion.

Since referring to IAAF scoring tables seems to be a common way to normalize performances, here goes:

3:46.91 - 1242

12:56.27 - 1224

59:43 - 1251.5

2:06:17 - 1258

Equivalent times to the 2:06:17 Marathon performance:

Mile - 3:45.68

5000m - 12:47.08

HM - 59:33

World Records

Mile - 1292

5000m - 1295

HM - 1297

Mar - 1294

I thought there was a distance skew to the scoring tables, but it's pretty obvious there isn't if you look at the scores of the world records. Therefore, it seems like the 5000m is clearly, but not significantly, the weakest performance. Still, I think Ritz has the ability to take his PR down to the low-12:50s and you have to think AlSal has the ability to bring back the Webb we all know.

I think Hall's marks are stronger on the world scene.

Its probably a little easier for most to be a Ritz fan.......

Ritz....gutsy gamer,versatile,seldom a bad "big" race.

Hall....unbelievable when in the zone. Some take potshots at his faith

Webb....frustrating for the regular fan because results rarely match potential recently

I believe in 2006 it should go to Hall as #1, not Ritz, based off of him winning Nats in XC and the American Record

I would say that when Hall ran the American Record, That was spectacular....am I wrong?

it is crazy to think about how these guys ran against each other in high school, and then went on to each hold american records: one in the mile, one in the 5k, one in the marathon - all "keystone" events. i think it'd be interesting to think about who would win in each event should they race while in prime shape for THEIR event.

800 - obviously Webb, guy has run 1:43.

1500/mile - Webb obviously taking this again.

3k/2 mile - In his prime, Webb would also take it, but Ritz would be right there. This might be the closest race between all three.

5k - Gotta go with Ritz after this past weekend. But Webb in PRIME 5k shape, minus all the headcase stuff, could probably do pretty well.

8k - Ritz again.

10k - Hall challenges? I think Ritz prevails.

15k up to the marathon - Hall, without a question.

They are all so dominant right now WITHIN their respective distances...no American has recently challenged 59:43 or 2:06, no American aside from Lagat has come within 10 seconds of 12:56 in two-three years, and aside from Lagat no American has even thought about breaking 3:50 in the mile (although Lomong's conversion is probably close).

the amp man,

You come across like you know what you're talking about, but you don't.

1st, Hall doesn't have the AR Marathon record. Kannouchi does

2nd, Teg has run 13:04 within the last 2-3 years... that's within 10 seconds

3rd, Webb beat Ritz in a 10k already, so to counting him out is a big mistake

Webb is the best runner we have ever seen in America. He could run 1:43, 3:28, 3:46, 7:28, 12:50, 26:50 if his head was on straight (I've actually always maintained those predictions, along with a sub 13:00 for Ritz). Definitely one of the most talented and versatile runners in the world.

I could see Ritz running 12:55, 26:50, and 2:05.

I could see Hall running 13:10, 27:15, 2:05, but more because of his training, not because of what he physically could run. Training with Jerry or AlSal, and focusing on the 5k and 10k, I think he and Ritz would be pretty close. 3:42 in hs versus 4:05 and not concentrating on it at all. Both have speed, but are strength oriented. And people don't give enough props to Ritz's speed. 4:05 in hs, while doing 5k training, is impressive speed.

Our 5k record was weak. 12:58, though outstanding, should have been broken already. Guys with slower 1500 and 3k prs then our boys were routinely breaking 13:00. Our boys just didn't have the aerobic capacity of the E. Africans. Trained correctly, guys like Derrick, Fernandez, Rupp, Teg, Solinsky, Jager should all be sub 13:00 guys.

They just need to keep putting in the 120-140 mile weeks (post college), like Bob did, to get it. Can't do the 80-90 mpw model.

If Fernandez and Derrick spent the next 2 year running 80-100 mpw and racing 1500s, then starting training as professionals and ran 120-140 mpw Jan-Mar, 80-100 through June, and 50-70 through Aug (like BK did), within 3 years of being pro (5 years from now) they would break 13:00.

Chances are they will never run that volume because they will equate it with being a marathoner, and they'll never be patient enough. Unless Jerry or AlSal get hold of them.

For some reason the rest of the world blew through 13:00 and we were stuck. I think 50% of that was mental and 50% of that was not training the aerobic system well enough. As I've maintained for some time now, I think we will overcome both and be in a position to compete with the E. Africans.

Called Weldon out on that a few weeks ago, and calling him out on it again.

"For some reason the rest of the world blew through 13:00 " quote

That's a pretty broad statement-- the rest of the world has been and remains stuck around 13 flat as well. I believe only a couple of non-Africans have broken 13, including Mottram most recently at 12:55. Comparitively, yes, the ARs are "weak" in regards to WRs, but then again, every distance WR is held by an African runner. To say that everyone else blew through 13 is, I think, a bit off.

My point is that if you look at many of the East African's PRs in 3k and 1500 (of the guys who are sub 13:00), they're not too unlike our 5k boy's 1500 and 3k PRs. I bet, for example, without looking it up, that Fam's 1500 PR is similar or faster than a lot of sub 13:00 guys, yet he can "only' manage a 13:10 or so. That's because Fam doesn't have the aerobic capacity for sub 13:00. The talent and speed is there, but he hasn't trained his aerobic system well enough.

I think that goes for a lot of guys in the US.

BTW, where does 7:30 rank up against 12:58? I would guess that BK's 3k record is superior according to the iaaf tables. He probably could have run even faster with more aerobic training. I would guess that a 7:30 is probably close to a 12:50 then a 12:58.

They are all hugely impressive. Each one sent a message that a US born athlete was finally ready to compete again at each of those distances. I personally think the 3:46 is the most impressive because there are so few people on earth who have ever beat that time. Hopefully, Webb will do well with the new coaching and get back on track to fulfill his amazing promise. That 12:56 blew me away, but there are still the 40+ others who have gone faster (including two who did it in the same race). Hall's times are getting less impressive with each passing marathon as the African runners are just getting so damn fast. Best wishes to him for a really strong showing in NY. I think Ritz will inspire continued great performances from this trio and others.

pert wrote:

I think Hall's marks are stronger on the world scene.

Its probably a little easier for most to be a Ritz fan.......

Ritz....gutsy gamer,versatile,seldom a bad "big" race.

It was much easier to be a Hall fan for the last 5 years. From the end of Ritz's college career until 2009 WC 10k final, Ritz was running mediocre (at best) to poor, especially the big races. Last place 2004 Olympic trials (advanced by USATF anyway), DNF 2004 Olympics finals. The blister excuse at World XC after predicted medal. 2008 Olympics, mediocre at best, don't give me that stuff about beating Hall, Hall ran like crap, that doesn't make Ritz a "gutsy gamer." Cramping excuses during marathons run in womanly times (compared to Hall's), not actually winning anything other than USA XC for all those years, etc. Now, however, it is like the Footlocker/NCAA XC champion version of Ritz is back after having his body snatched.

tigerox wrote:

They are all hugely impressive. Each one sent a message that a US born athlete was finally ready to compete again at each of those distances. I personally think the 3:46 is the most impressive because there are so few people on earth who have ever beat that time. Hopefully, Webb will do well with the new coaching and get back on track to fulfill his amazing promise. That 12:56 blew me away, but there are still the 40+ others who have gone faster (including two who did it in the same race). Hall's times are getting less impressive with each passing marathon as the African runners are just getting so damn fast. Best wishes to him for a really strong showing in NY. I think Ritz will inspire continued great performances from this trio and others.

Good point! Only 7 men have run faster than Webb, while its 24 for Hall, and 40 something for Ritz (lots of doping, confirmed and suspected here)

i agree wholeheartedly with the post below. factoring in the number of others who have run faster is critical to the impressiveness argument. few men, black, white or whichever, have ever broken 3:47 for the mile. i wasn't shocked at ritz's 12:56. he ran 13:4x just out of HS and 13:20 as a true frosh. he is so much stronger now. that 12:56 was a great race for him. says something about lydiard-esque training.i fully expect webb to run 12:4x and 26:4x. give him a year or two with alberto. shit, the guy ran 13:10 on his 4th (??) try. and 27:3x first time???

tigerox wrote:

They are all hugely impressive. Each one sent a message that a US born athlete was finally ready to compete again at each of those distances. I personally think the 3:46 is the most impressive because there are so few people on earth who have ever beat that time. Hopefully, Webb will do well with the new coaching and get back on track to fulfill his amazing promise. That 12:56 blew me away, but there are still the 40+ others who have gone faster (including two who did it in the same race). Hall's times are getting less impressive with each passing marathon as the African runners are just getting so damn fast. Best wishes to him for a really strong showing in NY. I think Ritz will inspire continued great performances from this trio and others.

Nice compilation brother. The only really glaring error I saw was that I'm pretty sure Hall didn't run 9:55 to win the state 2-mile crown in 2000; pretty sure it was faster than that. :)

leopard0s wrote:

i fully expect webb to run 12:4x and 26:4x.

Not only do you assume that Mr. Webb will move up in distance while in his prime, but you FULLY EXPECT him to run these times? Do you know how difficult these times are? You really fully expect Alan Webb to run two 13:2x 5ks in a row? To break the current 10k record by 30 seconds?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Alright this class is definitely the best class so far but can the class of 2004 beat this class down the road.

'04 has

1st Tier

Rupp

Lomong

McDougal

2nd Tier

Withrow

Kiptoo

Bumbalough

Should be interesting to compare in a few years especially if McDougal gets 100% again. Rupp is capable of beating the AR in the 5k, 10k, and marathon. Lomong is getting better every year as well.

I inspire confidence in all my athletes and expect them to meet the goals they set for themselves. Funny thing about confidence and positivity... Dathan will attest to this. Webb can do it. I'm sure you aren't aware that Webb's goal for his debut 10k was 27:35. And that his goal for Atletiek Vlaanderen was 3:47. The boy knows his abilities, so who am I to question?

laugher atter wrote:

leopard0s wrote:

i fully expect webb to run 12:4x and 26:4x.

Do you know how difficult these times are? You really fully expect Alan Webb to run two 13:2x 5ks in a row? To break the current 10k record by 30 seconds?

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!