Henry Marsh

bullshit...i have the tape of 96 trials and he is the best hurdler in the field. both legs and very effecient. one bad barrier where gary almost got him but he was ther class of the field.

Every time Athletics West is brought up it is regarding drugs. So, as Henry was a long time member of AW, maybe he was on drugs like everyone always says(i don't agree)that Salazar was.

TAKE A LOOM AT THE BEST STEEPLE TIMES BY AN AMERICAN AND CROGHAN HAS 25 OF THE TOP 35 I'D BET. HE, ALONG WITH KENNEDY, WAS ACTUALLY COMPETITIVE WITH THE KENYANS IN EUROPEAN CIRCUIT RACES. WHOE CARES ONE LEG VERSUS BOTH LEAGS, THE GUY WAS THE CONSISTENTLY BEST WE'VE EVER HAD. HE COULD DO IT ALONE AND DID SO TONS OF TIMES. PERHAPS HE SPENT HIS TIME GETTING FITTER AND NOT WORRYING ABOUT SITTING IN L7 FOR HOURS.

ck wrote:

One would think that the Mormon undergarment would hamper the steepling process. If so, then Henry was the best of his age. I always assumed this (underthingie) was why there are no great LDS hurdlers or high jumpers.

How did he miss a water jump and what the heck is a Mormon undergarment?

Marsh is a Mormon yet he took caffeine. Why not take the extra step, especially considering that AW had a drug program.

"Wow, put that in your pipe and smoke it, you 100 mile fanatics out there. The low-mileage/high intensity program obviously worked for him. I think he was incredibly competitive, too. Although I wonder if his low mileage program hurt him in meets with multiple rounds like the Olympics, in which he never did too well"

I am unsure why you don't pay attention to the thousands for whom low mileage didn't work instead of the one for whom it did. This surely belongs in the "my grandfather smoked a pack a day and lived to be 100" category.

Les wrote:

Wow, put that in your pipe and smoke it, you 100 mile fanatics out there. The low-mileage/high intensity program obviously worked for him. I think he was incredibly competitive, too. Although I wonder if his low mileage program hurt him in meets with multiple rounds like the Olympics, in which he never did too well.

Brilliant. Let's use the exception as the example.

Brian wrote:

I am unsure why you don't pay attention to the thousands for whom low mileage didn't work instead of the one for whom it did.

Hank wasn't alone in this regard, though. His BYU teammate, Doug Padilla, was also a very low-mileage guy, athough I think his interval training may have been of a higher intensity than Hank's.

This is just idle speculation, but I would suggest that this might be the best training for someone blessed with a high max VO2. First start with short intervals and low mileage to emphasize improvement in running economy. Then very gradually increase the length of the intervals and the mileage to boost the aerobic capacity. I would think that someone with a naturally high max VO2 would get the maximum benefit from this sort of max VO2 and aerobic work very quickly, say 6 to 10 weeks. Then they'd be firing smoothly on all cylinders -- great economy and great max VO2. The early emphasis on economy would overcome what is usually the greatest weakness of those with a predominance of slow-twitch fibers and thus a high max VO2 -- poor economy. And the improved economy would be reinforced by the subsequent long intervals, which probably wouldn't be that much slower than the early shorter intervals.

An added benefit of emphasizing economy early might be that the shorter intervals would strengthen the muscles fairly quickly, taking the burden off of the tendons and other soft tissues and thereby allowing interval length and mileage to be increased with a minimal risk of injury. As I recall, Hank was relatively healthy from year to year, even though the steeple can give the body quite a beating.

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this type of training pattern. I think it must be important, because it served Hank and Padilla very well, and they were two of our best ever.

The '81 World cup field was crowded approaching the water barrier and Marsh ran out of room to jump. He was basically forced to stop right at the edge so he made the decision to duck around it. Not much he could have done short of climbing over it or taking another run at it.

Marsh ran 8:09, about 14 seconds slower than 7:55. Maybe if he did some mileage he would have run sub 8:00. The Kenyans of today would smoke him.

Marsh and the other runners of his era had the luxory of not having to compete against the hoards of African runners that dominate today.

I believe that another key is that Marsh was a great technician over the barriers. What could he run the flat 3000 in? Perhaps 7:40 or a little faster. Way slower than what Komen and Gebreselassie have run. Therefore, it seems as if he isn't a good example of how low mileage does the trick. Not with a 15-20 second differential.

Also, even though Padilla was fast, I think his best times were something like 7:36 and 13:15. Again, way slower than the World records.

yes...but the world record for 3k wasn't 7:20. rono's 7:32.1 in '78 was the standard for 11 years before Aouita ran 7:29.45. kiptanui (moses)lowered it it 7:28.96 in '92, and it wasn't until '94 and morcelli that it went 7:25.11.

padilla was running world class times, and if marsh could run 7:40, then he was right in the mix.

and marsh did have to run against the kenyans. no, they weren't as dominant as they are today, but the steeple was the one event where they did show up and run.

there were also other guys from italy, germany, great britian, even belgium with van dijck, who were capable of running sub 8:10. now only africans do it.

Brian wrote:

"Wow, put that in your pipe and smoke it, you 100 mile fanatics out there. The low-mileage/high intensity program obviously worked for him. I think he was incredibly competitive, too. Although I wonder if his low mileage program hurt him in meets with multiple rounds like the Olympics, in which he never did too well"

I am unsure why you don't pay attention to the thousands for whom low mileage didn't work instead of the one for whom it did. This surely belongs in the "my grandfather smoked a pack a day and lived to be 100" category.

The point is Marsh ran 8:09 off of 50 miles a week. No one's saying it works for everyone. Most of the training posts on this board are about high mileage. It's simply interesting to talk about someone who was incredibly sucessful off of low mileage.

Did you say compare to Malmo? Nice joke! How many olimpics have Malmo run? the answer is 0. thanks

THINK OF IT is making the mistaken assumption of comparing the times of the past to the standards of today, ensuring that they come up short. I guess Babe Ruth couldn't play because he hit "only" 60 home runs compared to Barry the Balco Man's 73. You only compare times and performances to the era they came out of, unless in 10-15 years you're willing to say Geb sucked because the current world record holders could kick Geb's butt.

"I asked the doctors if I would risk more damage if I ran. They said they didn't think so but that it would be very, very painful to compete. That's fine. If it' just pain, I can live with that."

- On racing with bruised/broken ribs

So true. It is always JUST pain. No need to overreact.

Even if Marsh were running today (and was still young), I doubt that he would run 7:55. He had plenty of opportunities to run faster than 8:09. In fact, races were probably better for him in his day, because one of today's sub 8:00 races would probably cause him to go out too fast. Conditions weren't that different in his days, except that there weren't a bunch of fast African runners showing what is possible.

The effect of drugs etc.? I don't have a way of knowing anything for certain.

As far as volume vs. quality is concerned, I don't believe that it is possible to reach a 100% peak, because a runner could never do the amount of volume and/or quality work it would take to actually reach an ultimate fitness level. It comes down to finding out what an athlete can handle and what training mixture is best for he or her.

P.S. I just thought about it, and my psot name sounds kind of obnoxious. From now on I'll post as "OBN".

There is a good chance Marsh blood-doped- sounds like most if not all of the guys in AW did (it was a different time, wasn't viewed as cheating any more than altitude training. Croghan was the most dominant US steepler when everyone on the planet is invited to compete. Few would doubt the great influx of Africans on the steeple scene AFTER Marsh's time. I know he didn't get the trecord, but he ran fast (sub 8:16) way more often than all others!

All BYU runners train at altitude; it may be "only" 5000 feet but it's still tougher than sea level. PLus Henry did mission work for 2 years so when he returned (overweight and out of shape) he was, nevertheless, that much more mature and fresh.

Indiana