having a hard time getting my heart rate high

I believe J. Tupper could help you with this. He posted some interesting info before. The numbers probably don't mean too much. He did mention that Ryun had a resting rate of 68 to 72, and a max hr of only about 170 or so.

I think Lance is on to something about the fatigue. I dont wear a HM but I take my pulse over 10 beats after all my runs. Many times I play in a band on Saturday night, performing, lifting equipment, and of course drinking. On Sundays I can sleep later and hang around preparing to run but my run feels stale. The thing I noticed most was that pulse rate many times failed to get within 10-15 beats of its normal high end range (about 168-174).I would have expected just the opposite, that if fatigued it would race extremely high. Go figure.

Yes, fatigue causes heart rates to drop, especially when your sugar (glycogen) stores are low.

By the way, if your max heart rate is 205 and you are running only in the low 170s for your threshold tempo runs, either your are running too slowly or your threshold is not nearly as well developed as it can be. I figure runners in good shape push to around 89% plus or minust one or two percent at their thresholds when in shape. Out of shape, sedentary folks, for example, reach threshold below 70% of max HR.

I think what happens when your heart is fatigued is that your resting heart rate is higher (probably because your strok volume is weaker, so it takes more beats to pump the blood needed for basic bodily functions). However, when actually exercising, your heart is so fatigued that it has a hard time increasing beyond a certain point.

In this way, the heart functions like skeletal muscle when fatigued. When your muscles are tired, your maximum strength is lower, but you can still move a lighter weight a few times. However, you wouldn't be able to move that lighter weight very many times or as fast as you could if you weren't fatigued. When the heart is tired, it's stroke volume is less, but it can still carry on normal bodily functions by beating slightly faster. However, when called upon to beat very fast, the heart would have trouble responding.

This is just my own guess. I would like to hear what an expert has to say.

Well I think I am in pretty good shape right now (for me). The only thing I can think of, is maybe my max is lower than 205 when I'm in shape. I remember hearing somewhere that your max lowers a little as you get fitter, but I'm not sure by how much. Even if it dropped 5 beats, I still would be at 86% at 172 right? This effort today felt just as hard as last week, when I got my HR up to 177 or 178 during the last mile.

I haven't been doing much tempo work, since during the season we would just run speed workouts and distance runs inbetween.

Could another possibility be that my legs are not strong enough to maintain for the distance I ran? When I wear my Hr monitor on easy runs, my average is usually around 150 for the entire run, and will sometimes get up to 160 at the highest if I pick up the pace a little towards the end. So in that sense, I am spending a lot of time between 145-155 but rarely over.

One of my friends that has run 13:52 for 5K and 28:50 for 10K had a max back then of around 170, he had a hard time getting out of the 160's running as hard as he could.

I think going on your effort is more important than the numbers. Don't sweat it, that is a great tempo run and you will run fast when the time comes to race

bumpity

I had a similar query a while back. The thread is at

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=230906&thread=230906

You may find useful comments from the experts there. The main conlcusion is good - that is to eat more!

wow, thanks for posting that. it was very helpful. how has the running gone for you since October?

I think this may be what is affecting me, but I'm not sure since when I run easy, my HR can climb to 150 without much effort. Today I ran 10 miles at 7:45-50 pace and it felt like I was shuffling the whole way. I wore my heart rate monitor and my average for the run was 145, with a max of 150 briefly.

it seems odd that I have a hard time running 20 beats per minute higher right? during the first 2 miles of my tempo run yesterday, my breathing was one full cycle every 4 steps, so basically inhale 2:2. I didn't pay attention to it after that, but it may have increased to something like a 4:7 ratio? not sure. I was hurting the last mile, yet my HR gravitated towards 170.

Don't get too concerned about comparing two specific instances. Also, don't assume that the lower HR with the faster tempo run is the one that is unusual; it's popssible that the higher HR last week with the slower run was the one that was responding to a different set of circumstances -- dehydrated or a hotter day, windy, who knows. If interested in plotting your own responses, do it over a long period of time and you will get to see how things may vary -- record the conditions of the day, how you feel and your HR related to the pace you run, etc. Do your own experiment. You are dong wel with the running.

I am glad that you found that earlier post useful. It is a shame there is so much on this board that posts disappear down to page 40 in about a week! The advice of Hadd and jtupper there has helped me a lot. I am currently focusing on the Hadd type of training (whose posts you have surely seen?) - two days at steady state (140 HR) and all other days easy. The hope is to raise that stubborn LT pace.

Any time I have trouble with lower heart rate now my first reaction is to see if I have been low on carbos. On Tues of this week I had to work hard to get the HR where I wanted on a steady state run. I ran easy Wed but failed to eat much and Thurs morning I struggled with an easy run. Thurs was Christmas Day and I really focused on food - managed three different dinner invitations and ate more at EACH one than anyone present! Today I had a fine strong run at normal HR. Of course, it is not just food - it is the relationship of mileage to carbs. Jtupper's reference to the studies of the guy running 10 miles per day and slowly reaching chronic depletion was most interesting.

Eat more and let us know how it goes!

Update? Have you figured it out yet?

it is important to know that heart rate at all intensities of training and racing will often decrease as you get fitter.

this is due to both increased efficiency in the heart, and increased blood volume.

heart rate is not an accurate indicator of performance, so stop relying on your heart rate monitor and learn to feel the pace instead.

that makes sense. I'm just confused on what I should do. on one end is hadd, saying I should strap on a HR monitor and run at a 140 HR for base. then there are others who say I should just get out and run, and not worry about anything.

I'm pretty slow right now and have no speed anyways (can't break 60 for a 400), so I really want to find what's best for me in training.

Jerk off, a lot. That gets mine high.

bB

Hadd's advice is excellant, but heart rate is only a general guide to stop people from overtraining.

when it comes to races and hard workouts, running pace and recovery rates are only true indicator of your condition.