Sub 1:50 800m Training

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  • Pmoax
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    11 years ago 10/13/2008 12:52pm CDT
    re: me o my
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    appologies...
    I'll try something different.

    Here is a sample base week for me now, critiques would be appreciated as well as advice.

    Monday:1. [email protected]% with 6-8 minute recovery,
    2. plyos weights
    Tuesday: 1. 12X400m Hills @80 with 2 minute jog recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Wednesday: 6-8 Mile Run
    Thursday: 1. Hurdle Technique, 10X200m @32 over 400mih with 3 minute recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Friday: 1. 3X5X20m Sled, Plyos, Weights
    2. 10X100m @15s with 60s recovery
    Saturday: 1. 6X800m @2:25 with 2 minute recovery
    2. 4-5 Mile Run
    Sunday: 6-8 Mile Run
  • loki
    11 years ago 10/13/2008 1:09pm CDT
    re: Pmoax
    Forum Index
    does anyone have anymore thoughts on general strength / weights for an 800m runner. there are many different approaches (el g - high reps low weight, coe - med/low rep med/high weight, some coaches now say lift like a sprinter). I think high intensity leg circuits can be beneficial, and I don't think a runner should shy away from lifting with their legs. I do think that olympic lifts should be avoided (due to the technical demands and potential for injury if not done correctly) and one should focus on simple exercises like squats, pushups, and pullups. the older i get, the more important i feel general strength/core work is.

    OldSub4, was there any daily remedial/injury prevention work you did with Gags?
  • paw485
    11 years ago 10/13/2008 4:03pm CDT
    re: loki
    Forum Index
    I also am curious about weight training for 800m runners. not sure if my question was answered somewhere else in this post, couldnt find it. but Oldsub4, what would you recommend for lifting on the upper body for an 800m runner. i want to peak sometime in late may, early june, and im wondering what kind of lifting would benefit me most to be doing now, and throughout the winter (high reps low weight, low reps high weight etc)

    also, what would be the best way to strenghten my hamstrings, as it applies to running?
  • what up doe
    11 years ago 10/13/2008 6:01pm CDT
    re: paw485
    Forum Index
    Oldsub4 already stated that he didnt do much upper body lifting as he tended to bulk up too much.

    I would recommend just doing some core stuff like pullups, pushups, and dips
  • make sense
    11 years ago 10/13/2008 7:07pm CDT
    re: Pmoax
    Forum Index
    If you are in base period I think you are doing to many wo's and not builing your aerobic base enough.
    I trained an 800 runner this way last year but she was moving up from the 400. She had a big improvement but that was because her training was far more sprint oriented in the past so I used what you have posted as a kind of transition year. This year we are trying to build a bigger base and are substituting tempo runs for some of the past years previous wo's.
  • flow
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 8:40am CDT
    re: Pmoax
    Forum Index
    Pmoax wrote:

    Here is a sample base week for me now, critiques would be appreciated as well as advice.

    Monday:1. [email protected]% with 6-8 minute recovery,
    2. plyos weights
    Tuesday: 1. 12X400m Hills @80 with 2 minute jog recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Wednesday: 6-8 Mile Run
    Thursday: 1. Hurdle Technique, 10X200m @32 over 400mih with 3 minute recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Friday: 1. 3X5X20m Sled, Plyos, Weights
    2. 10X100m @15s with 60s recovery
    Saturday: 1. 6X800m @2:25 with 2 minute recovery
    2. 4-5 Mile Run
    Sunday: 6-8 Mile Run

    Pmoax, are you training for the 400h?
  • fUrCeOsNhN
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 9:44am CDT
    re: flow
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    I was wondering about correct training percentages for 800m base phase. Right now I am doing about 65-85 miles a week, average 80.

    After I go for a run, I label it either e,t,h,s or w. The running log program I use doesn't let me split up a workout, so if half of a run is easy and half is tempo, I cannot divide it up. So based on that I had

    Easy Runs (6:00-7:00 pace) 20-25%
    Tempo Runs (5:10-5:30 pace) 40-55%
    Hill Workouts 15-20%
    Sprint Workouts 5-10%
    Weight Workouts 5-10%

    In reality though the amount of easy running is higher.

    -Weight workouts are usually just easy miles followed by lifting in the gym.

    -Sprint workouts are usually 2wu, 8-10X100, 2 cd;so they are mostly easy running as well.

    -Also for most normal tempos have at least a mile of easy running at the start to see if my legs need rest.

    -Progressions where the first 1/3 or 1/2 is easy are just lumped into tempos.

    -Runs that have hard surges every so often at 5k-tempo pace are also chucked into the tempo pace even though there is a fair amount of only moderate pace running.

    -Workouts like 6-12X(1/3 3k/5k pace, 1/3 moderate) count as tempo as well.

    -Hill workouts usually have an easy jog down the hill, as well as an easy pace to get to the hill and back.

    -I have cut out long runs (over 13 miles). They used to be as much as 15-20% of my mileage, but now I double a lot more often, 4-7 times a week. I rarely go over 10 miles now.

    So based on absolute time spent running, it is probably more like

    Easy Running (6:00-7:00 pace) 55-65%
    Tempo pace (5:10-5:30 pace) 30-40%
    Uphill Running 5-10%
    Sprinting 2-3%

    How does this compare to what others are doing/have done? To how the best ever trained?
  • Pmoax
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    11 years ago 10/14/2008 10:22am CDT
    re: make sense
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    actually I am a 200/400m runner moving up, and I think in the future more tempo runs would be incorporated. Do you have any more details as to her transition.
  • Pmoax
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    11 years ago 10/14/2008 10:26am CDT
    re: flow
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    not specifically, my coach is consider to be one of the best hurdle coaches in the nation and most of his athletes are hurdlers and since I feel the events are so similar (400/800 training vs. 400mih training) I might as well get some work in, I might do a couple 400mih races in outdoors as well.
  • flow
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 11:34am CDT
    re: flow
    Forum Index
    Pmoax wrote:

    Here is a sample base week for me now, critiques would be appreciated as well as advice.

    Monday:1. [email protected]% with 6-8 minute recovery,
    2. plyos weights
    Tuesday: 1. 12X400m Hills @80 with 2 minute jog recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Wednesday: 6-8 Mile Run
    Thursday: 1. Hurdle Technique, 10X200m @32 over 400mih with 3 minute recovery
    2. 3 Mile Run
    Friday: 1. 3X5X20m Sled, Plyos, Weights
    2. 10X100m @15s with 60s recovery
    Saturday: 1. 6X800m @2:25 with 2 minute recovery
    2. 4-5 Mile Run
    Sunday: 6-8 Mile Run

    so you're a long sprinter thinking about moving up to the 800m surrounded by a bunch of 400 hurdlers with a hurdles coach that doesn't have complete control of your training - in that you seem to be able to choose.

    This is all a little tricky. Fortunately you have lots of time if you have just begun the base work.

    First are you solid in your goal of moving to the 800m or are other options in your head?

    Also what sort of aerobic training have you done in the past? It doesn't look like you might have done much based on your new, aerobic infused base training plan.

    I guess there is a need to know the answers to those questions before proceeding.

    cool?
  • flow
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 12:18pm CDT
    re: fUrCeOsNhN
    Forum Index
    fUrCeOsNhN wrote:

    I was wondering about correct training percentages for 800m base phase. Right now I am doing about 65-85 miles a week, average 80.

    After I go for a run, I label it either e,t,h,s or w. The running log program I use doesn't let me split up a workout, so if half of a run is easy and half is tempo, I cannot divide it up. So based on that I had

    Easy Runs (6:00-7:00 pace) 20-25%
    Tempo Runs (5:10-5:30 pace) 40-55%
    Hill Workouts 15-20%
    Sprint Workouts 5-10%
    Weight Workouts 5-10%

    In reality though the amount of easy running is higher.

    -Weight workouts are usually just easy miles followed by lifting in the gym.

    -Sprint workouts are usually 2wu, 8-10X100, 2 cd;so they are mostly easy running as well.

    -Also for most normal tempos have at least a mile of easy running at the start to see if my legs need rest.

    -Progressions where the first 1/3 or 1/2 is easy are just lumped into tempos.

    -Runs that have hard surges every so often at 5k-tempo pace are also chucked into the tempo pace even though there is a fair amount of only moderate pace running.

    -Workouts like 6-12X(1/3 3k/5k pace, 1/3 moderate) count as tempo as well.

    -Hill workouts usually have an easy jog down the hill, as well as an easy pace to get to the hill and back.

    -I have cut out long runs (over 13 miles). They used to be as much as 15-20% of my mileage, but now I double a lot more often, 4-7 times a week. I rarely go over 10 miles now.

    So based on absolute time spent running, it is probably more like

    Easy Running (6:00-7:00 pace) 55-65%
    Tempo pace (5:10-5:30 pace) 30-40%
    Uphill Running 5-10%
    Sprinting 2-3%

    How does this compare to what others are doing/have done? To how the best ever trained?

    I'm not so sure about what the best have done. I guess i read all of that stuff from the greats and it blends into my own continuously developing understanding. What i do know is that Lydiard stuff has influenced me more than any other single coach with Cerutty coming in second and everyone else below that.

    So to comment on a few things based on that:

    The tempo running equates to Lydiard's idea of best aerobic pace i imagine and to do less of that than the easy running is a good idea from where i sit. Unless you are highly trained already in which case the tempo stuff as you have defined it by pace should probably rise to equal the easy running.

    The way i like it is to have the athletes run in three zones in base prep or GPP.

    1.Recovery zone above 120bpm less than 130bpm - these can be used anywhere

    2.Easy zone which is up to how the athlete feels and ranges from recovery zone at 120bpm through to underneath best paced or tempo zone which is athlete dependent and may be 150bpm or there abouts.

    3.Best paced aerobic or your tempo is say 180 less age amended for a number of variables such as recent training history and long term training history, plus things i can't determine. However this pace is worked out over a week or so by finding it oneself - through feel and experimentation. Some may be higher or lower than others with all the other variables seemingly equal.

    - sprint workouts i like to use 80m although it is over 100m by the time they have stopped. 80m feels to me the right distance before too much CP has been used. It also feels like where i want to slow down without putting in any extra effort towards the end, proabably because the CP is low and other sources are starting to be used.

    also i graduate these sprints so the first is at 50% and each one builds in intensity by 5-10%. I also like to stop afert about 6 and sometimes 8. The reason is that i connect them to the tempo/best paced sessions for a number of reasons. First is that i'm very big on developing form and doing a series of runthroughs as i like to call them enables multiple chances to develop this form or technique with feedback after each one. Then this developed and focused form hopefully transfers into the longer running which follows directly after them. Because i link the runthroughs to the longer running i suppose that's why they involve 6x80m from 50-100% instead of what you propose.

    - i like the way you use some easy running to ensure being fully warmed up before a gym session. I also like the way you test yourself out with a warmup mile before the tempos

    - i also use progression runs once the steady runs in the different zones are strongly established. Steady for me is always first. A progression profile for me is always like a smoothly rolling hill at first before attempting any steep mountainous profiles. It will being in recovery zone for a bit then progressively moving up to best paced/tempo zone before progressively slowing back down into recovery zone for a period before finishing. Your hard surges would fit into a more mountainous profile which may contain a number of peaks but this is advanced progression stuff for me.

    - your workouts i like to leave until late in the base/GPP phase because to me this is like tuning up and tuning up only occurs when you have something really solid to work with. However, if they fit into the tempo zone then it would be more like a progressive run.If they go above the tempo zone then they can wait until the tempo zone has been maximised over time and begun to plateau in development.

    - dedicated hills i leave until after the base/GPP phase however yours seem to be connected into continuous aerobic running so they may simply replace doing the best paced/tempo runs over hills. I like random when it comes to hills well before and real scientific structuring takes place but that's just me.

    - the long run i feel is very important but also very hard mentally. I feel it's purpose is to progressively tax your system in a very deep way as well as tax you psychologically. It is tough to continue to work when you seem to have nothing left. Yet Lydiard would say if you want to recruit more (long term unused) aerobic fibres then you need to get into very long runs. He also says this is where your ambiguous anaerobic fibres are brought into play and so start to learn to become oxidative. He also says this is where you can learn to retain more glycogen as only after glycogen depletion has occurred does the body keep more in store. It will keep as much as it thinks it needs so make it need more.

    - i think doubles are essential if you want to develop quickly yet prefer not to always push your training load too much due to the potential injury risk and possibility of psychological burnout. The morning double for me is always in the recovery zone. If any higher then is impinges upon the afternoon session which should always follow the progressive overload principle in that as you adapt to the current load you need to increase the load to continue the rate of improvement. A harder am session will limit these progressive development opportunities.

    cheers for the excellent mentally stimulating post.

    flow
  • Pmoax
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 12:51pm CDT
    re: flow
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    The coach does have full control of my training, I am just not able to meet with him everyday. I have run xc sophmore and junior years, the benifits of xc no longer outweighted the cons this year. I have run 60-65 miles a week and have put together multiple 50-55 mile weeks together so I am no stranger to aerobic work. My ultimate goal will be to run the 800m in college and further, but I think developing the 400m speed now will pay off more, especially for my body type. I am looking to be around 1:50 and 47fat by the end of this year.
  • Blame it on the pain
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 1:17pm CDT
    re: Pmoax
    Forum Index
    I am a post-collegiate 800m runner who is running on the club level and trying to improve my times.

    My dilemma is as follows:
    Last year, I decided to move up to the 800 and as a result, did more distance oriented training. I got fitter than ever before aerobically, but simultaneously felt as though I lost all of my speed. I continued to do strides, 200's, etc. but couldn't hit the times that I ran with more speed oriented training. For instance, my split on the 4 x 400 relay was 3 seconds slower than the previous year! And I couldn't come within 4 seconds of my 800 PR. Could this have been the result of having too many miles in my legs or being aerobically underdeveloped? Running higher mileage, I always felt fatigued and dead-legged, but I wasn't anemic, as I had my iron levels checked several times. The long run of 8-10 miles seemed to take the most out of me.

    This fall, I cut back on my mileage and started adding drills, sprints, and hills religiously to try and get that pop back in my legs. I am also lifting weights and doing lots of core exercises. I feel much better, but don't know if I should add anything else to my routine?

    My training week looks like this:
    Day 1 - 1 mi wu, drills, plyo's, 10 x 100m, 2 mi cd, weights
    Day 2 - 5 miles medium hard
    Day 3 - Longer Interval Workout, i.e. 3 x 8 min, mile repeats, 5 x 1000m, etc., weights
    Day 4 - Long Run of 6-8 miles
    Day 5 - 5 mile run with something fast worked in or at the end like strides, fartlek, and weights
    Day 6 - easy 4 mile run
    Day 7 - Hills (in fall -- 2 sets of 6 x 300 or 250m hill with easy jog recovery)

    Thanks for any help.
  • Blame it on the pain
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 1:26pm CDT
    re: Blame it on the pain
    Forum Index
    One more thing: I competed at the Div. 1 level in college, but am not elite by any means. Now that I am running post-collegiately, my races are usually either at D1 college meets or at meets like Boston High Performance. Consequently, my training is focused around the fact that I am not going to run in any meets with rounds. So, I will not be running in a meet where I will have to run 3 rounds in 5 days (unless of course I significantly improve my PR).

    I wonder what you all think on this board about mileage for 800m runners who are peaking for competitions with multiple rounds vs. those who are gearing up to peak in a specific open race or two during the summer? Wouldn't the runner who is not running rounds be able to get away with less mileage?

    Thanks!
  • me o my
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 2:38pm CDT
    re: Blame it on the pain
    Forum Index
    I had this same problem. My 800 PR came very early in my first season of running high mileage. In subsequent years I improved my mile dramatically but the 800 never moved in one direction or the other.

    I felt exactly what you are describing, very fit but no pop. I also wonder if anyone has felt this and successfully corrected.
  • hill city
    registered
    11 years ago 10/14/2008 3:06pm CDT
    re: me o my
    Forum Index
    Did you add more miles on top of what you were already doing? That might take quite awhile to adapt to if you did. Moreover, were you running your mileage too fast? I think MD guys have to go a little bit slower than true distance guys on their easy runs.
  • fUrCeOsNhN
    registered
    11 years ago 10/15/2008 4:51pm CDT
    re: me o my
    Forum Index
    me o my wrote:

    I felt exactly what you are describing, very fit but no pop. I also wonder if anyone has felt this and successfully corrected.

    Either

    a) your legs are tired or

    b) you need to add specific work to get that pop back

    It is tought to figure out which one it is sometimes. Here are the solutions:

    a)rest

    b) Add in hill sprints, drills, weights and sprints but be careful.
  • heel-striker
    11 years ago 10/15/2008 8:07pm CDT
    re: fUrCeOsNhN
    Forum Index
    So, I have been following the advice here to change my form and in the past couple of days I have tried to implement it on my runs. Before, I would run very erect and would pull with my quads to reach forward and move my stride, resulting in a heel strike every time. Now, I have been trying to lean forward, keep my hips forward, and push-off using my hamstrings more, and it definitely has helped. It feels a lot easier to generate more power. My footstrike is more towards the forefoot now but it feels weird around my lumbar spine (because my hips are forward). I can feel the curvature (of lumbar spine) now because I'm almost thrusting my hips forward. It doesn't hurt at all and I feel just fine, but am I doing it right? Let me know what you guys think.
  • OldSub4
    11 years ago 10/15/2008 10:55pm CDT
    re: loki
    Forum Index
    loki wrote:

    does anyone have anymore thoughts on general strength / weights for an 800m runner. there are many different approaches (el g - high reps low weight, coe - med/low rep med/high weight, some coaches now say lift like a sprinter). I think high intensity leg circuits can be beneficial, and I don't think a runner should shy away from lifting with their legs. I do think that olympic lifts should be avoided (due to the technical demands and potential for injury if not done correctly) and one should focus on simple exercises like squats, pushups, and pullups. the older i get, the more important i feel general strength/core work is.

    OldSub4, was there any daily remedial/injury prevention work you did with Gags?

    Agree that core work is important to staying healthy--making sure you are addressing any imbalances. We would spend a decent amount of time on physio off our feet -- ice baths post workout, lots of dynamic stretching in the evening to open up the hip joint and all the supporting muscles. Tom Nohilly runs a program in Manhattan that helps train people and was a big influence on us with the stretching.
  • rubio
    11 years ago 10/15/2008 11:10pm CDT
    re: OldSub4
    Forum Index
    Old-Sub 4 et. al.,

    I'm pretty inflexible around my hip joint and so are my hamstrings. And I definitely do think that this restricts my form and range, thus my speed to a very good extent. Did you find static stretches (holding a position for 30 secs+) or active stretching (10 x 2 secs or something like that) more effective? How did you guys work on those hip joints? Thanks for such a great contribution to this thread.