Chicago Distance Classic - Course long?

John, is that 880 feet in each direction (i.e. north and south of the correct turnaround point?) or 440 feet (for a total of 880)? He states the turnaround point itself was extended 880 feet which seems to imply the course was extended a total of 1760 feet.

Thanks for the clarification.

John Bingham wrote:

The course certifier is acknowledging that the turn around is off by 0.1668 miles. He is therefore marking the course at 13.2762 miles.

I am communicating with him to make sure that this should not be 2*0.1668 miles which would be the logical error.

John

John,

It sounds like the certifier is only going to acknowledge the south turnaround point error and make an adjustment for that. I believe there are other distance errors as well, such as just before the home stretch, the actual course went under Lake Shore Drive and then looped back up the curved path towards Roosevelt, but the course map does not reflect it this way. Only an accurate remeasurement of the actual course run will yield the true distance.

Also, you posted earlier that you would find the EXACT distance and adjust the times, but now it sounds like that is not possible. If the course was really 13.4 miles long (or whatever), why couldn't you just divide each runners time by 13.4 to get their pace and multiply that by 13.1 to get their accurate half marathon time? I realize there may be some rules against something like this, but it seems like a quick and easy fix.

Thanks.

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 9:55 AM, John J. Bingham

wrote:

> Neyl,

> Help me understand this. If we went .1668 too far south, isn't the course

> 2*.1668 long?

no, the complete turnaround as ran (from starting point to the turn

and back to the starting point: the complete U) extended the race

.1668 of a mile, that would be the turnaround point it self was

extended .1668/2 = 0.0834

So far, I've seen John Bingham call out "the course certifier" and "the timers" as responsible for this year's CDC debacle. He even goes so far as to copy the course measurer's entire apology letter INCLUDING his full name.

C'mon Penguin, you are the Race Director. If you didn't throw your employees and contractors under the bus and took some responsibility, you might have come out of this mess with some respect. Right now, you just look like a jerk.

From the Chicago Marathon office:

"If you announce the course to be long "X" number of feet, we will adjust our corral qualifying times specifically for the CDC 13.X distance. There is no need for Ann [the timer] to do anything special for us. I have the results from the site in our database and can update accordingly."

The course was .1668 of a mile long and that distance will be used in the adjustments.

I hope that this settles things. Again, I'm sorry for the confusion. My thanks to those of you who identified the problem and gave us the opportunity to make it right.

John

How is that? Don't you hire a person to certify the course and hold them accountable for it? I guess you expect the race director to walk the course with a wheel while taking care of everything else?Mr Bingham is giving all the information in a pretty timely manner I would say.

AngryBatman wrote:

So far, I've seen John Bingham call out "the course certifier" and "the timers" as responsible for this year's CDC debacle. He even goes so far as to copy the course measurer's entire apology letter INCLUDING his full name.

C'mon Penguin, you are the Race Director. If you didn't throw your employees and contractors under the bus and took some responsibility, you might have come out of this mess with some respect. Right now, you just look like a jerk.

South Side Runner wrote:

Also, you posted earlier that you would find the EXACT distance and adjust the times, but now it sounds like that is not possible. If the course was really 13.4 miles long (or whatever), why couldn't you just divide each runners time by 13.4 to get their pace and multiply that by 13.1 to get their accurate half marathon time? I realize there may be some rules against something like this, but it seems like a quick and easy fix.

The reason there are rules against that is that by doing so, you would not be getting "their accurate half marathon time". Unless there was a timing mat at the half marathon distance (obviously there wasn't), then it is just not possible to get an "accurate half marathon time". No amount of mathematical fudging can change that.

You can run your own formula to get your own unofficial time, but it won't be official. Just as some states have their high school 1600m record the same time as their mile record because no one ran a timed 1600m race faster than the fastest timed mile race.

After doing the math, the extra 268 meters works out exactly to the pace I was running.

It's unfortunate that the course was off, but thank you for clearing things up. I think by posting here on a public forum, Bingham is indeed taking responsibility.

AngryBatman wrote:

So far, I've seen John Bingham call out "the course certifier" and "the timers" as responsible for this year's CDC debacle. He even goes so far as to copy the course measurer's entire apology letter INCLUDING his full name.

C'mon Penguin, you are the Race Director. If you didn't throw your employees and contractors under the bus and took some responsibility, you might have come out of this mess with some respect. Right now, you just look like a jerk.

This seems to be a common occurrence whenever a course is screwed up. The question remains, what is so hard about riding the course after it's set up, BEFORE the race starts. Even someone the RD sends out riding on a bike would have picked up the bad turn around.

Why would it have been such a problem to send someone out on a bike at 5:45 to check the course?

For what it's worth.

Neyl and I - as well the person riding in the lead police vehicle, the lead JBR vehicle, and the pace car - DID drive the course at 4 AM to make sure that everything was right.

He just made a mistake. I'm not throwing him under a bus. He's the best certifier in the area and we'll use him again.

In my view we've done all that we can do to acknowledge the mistake and correct it. I'm not hiding behind an employee, just trying to be specific about how an error like this happens.

Ultimately it is my responsibility. I accept that. As soon as I was made aware of the problem I began the process of solving it, which we've done.

We have not denied that there was an error or engaged in anything other than honest and frank communications. I believe that most people will respect that.

John

People, give John a break. This is not as bad of a situation as people are making it out to be. John is being very open about the problems of the course, and the fact that he is taking feedback on this forum is great. I ran the Chicago Marathon last year, and nowhere did Cary (the race director - I think that was his name?) acknowledge feedback of any kind.

It was a mistake, definitely a significant one, but he has acknowledged that, and is working to rectify it.

always happens wrote:

Why would it have been such a problem to send someone out on a bike at 5:45 to check the course?

If the document that was used to mark the course says "4th pole south of Science Drive" instead of 4th pole north (see earlier this thread), then someone on a bike at 5:45 will simply note that the turnaround is indeed at that location. They're not going to detect anything.

Similar thing happened 3 years ago in the Corporate Challenge Championship- only it was short. The turnaround was made one block (500 ft. total discrepancy) early.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/08/nyregion/08run.html

Dude, seriously. Go into your garage, get your shovel and rebury the 2007 Chicago Marathon horse you just dug up. It was beaten to death A LONG TIME AGO and has no place here.

Don't blame Cary Pinkowski for the hot weather. Blame yourself for being undertrained to handle it. Waddle on, Alex.

ABM wrote:

Dude, seriously. Go into your garage, get your shovel and rebury the 2007 Chicago Marathon horse you just dug up. It was beaten to death A LONG TIME AGO and has no place here.

Don't blame Cary Pinkowski for the hot weather. Blame yourself for being undertrained to handle it. Waddle on, Alex.

POD!!!

ABM,

Another example of people letting emotions get the best of them...

I finished the Chicago Marathon in a good time, with plenty of water support, and was very well trained (40-50 miles a week). It wasn't my first marathon.

Way to make assumptions. I will make sure to keep that in mind in your future posts.

This might help, I thought I had been told that this is how they measure the course.

http://www.usatf.org/events/courses/certification/manual/shortest-possible-route.asp

John,

I am in the unfortunate position of having finished in just over 1:26 with the adjusted distance, only because I slowed down when I realized during the race that I was not going to make the qualifying time. Had I known that the distance was definitely incorrect and that our times were going to be adjusted, I would have continued pushing hard and definitely would have finished in under 1:25:59. I'm not sure who this suggestion should be forwarded to, but I ask that there be exceptions made for those trying to qualify for a certain corral who were in this position... or at least for those who ask for an exception. Could you please suggest this to those in charge of the marathon start corrals? Thanks so much.

Alex H-S wrote:

ABM,

and was very well trained (40-50 miles a week). It wasn't my first marathon.

You should stop posting now. Please.