Is there some formula i can use to get from one to the other?
I often run a four mile tempo run on the track in ~22:00. It feels pretty smooth, not too hard. What kind of pace should I expect for a 5k? What about a 5k with moderate hills? I just don't have a ton of experience racing that distance, so I don't really know how fast to go out. thanks for any advice.
Is there some formula i can use to get from one to the other?
Tempo pace is an old swimming term that Coach Daniels used in the 1980s to describe lactate threshold training which is the pace you could hold if you run all-out for an hour. This pace, moderately hard, is used by runners to train their bodies to improve their body's ability to deal with and reduce acidic buil-up. Lactic acid breaks into lactate (a fuel source) and acid (hydrogen ions). The acid portion causes neuromuscular fatigue and slows a runner's pace, eventually. So, improving the speed at which and the fraction of maximum aerobic capacity one can use before the lacate threshold is reached will improve a runner's performances in distance races.
How fast is the tempo or lactate threshold pace relative to your 5k pace, roughly 8% slower, on average. So if you run 5:10 per mile in a race, for example you would have a tempo (l.t.) pace of approximately 5:34.8 (310 seconds = 5:10 for the mile X 1.08 + 334.8 seconds or 5:34.8 total). So, if you want to guess what your 22 minute 4 mile effort at tempo pace was worth, divide your current 5:330 pace (330 seconds) by 1.08 (instead of muliplying) and you should run about 5:05.55 pace (305.55 seconds). If you were running your tempo run of 22 minutes even for 4 miles at an effort harder than the lactate threshold tempo pace referred to by Daniels, et al, then you might not be able to hold that 5:05.55 pace. Remember that the surface you run on, track vs grass vs hills, and the weather affect the pace that you can run your 5k pace at. So, if you ran that 22 minute 4 miler on the track at the exact tempo pace you were trying to run, then perhaps you could run 5:10-5:15 pace on the grass or slower, depending upon hills.
Research shows that tempo (l.t.) training is effective, but doing less than 25 minutes per week limits your race improvement over the course of a season. Your 4 mile tempo run is close to the goal. You need about 10 minutes of MO2 running per week too (max V02) running per week to have continued success too. So either run one 5k race per week or do some longer intervals 1k-1600m at your race pace or a little faster each week.
Yes indeed, that was a very informative answer. Thanks for taking the time to show the math.
Swoosh and Vodka:
You are quite welcome! Thanks for the positive feedback.
Whilst I commend the mathematical efforts of yowsa,
do you think Kenyans give a shit about that sort of stuff? The reason why you shouldnt be EXPECTING anything, is because once you get ANY sort of value into your mind, you are immediately placing limitations on yourself and performance.
Go out and get a 5km race. Dont wear a watch, dont listen to anyone calling splits (or if you are time-trialling ask for no splits) and run hard and smart. Listen to your body, feel the speed - run your best, and THEN you will know what to expect next time.
Do you think that the Kenyans are training without the benefit of science or math and have this innate ability to decifer threshold pace on feel? How many Kenyans have you trained with? They don't all live in huts and eat Ugali for every meal. Furthermore, what are you PR's, have you maxed your talents by feel? If not, then what's the hold up? You make it sound so easy, I can't understand why we all don't JUST DO IT.
Great answer. Loved the details.
Marius Bakken has accounted for the Kenyans success to them being able to run by feel, attributed to years of training and high altitude that lets you know when you running too fast. I love numbers, Formula`s are great and should be used especially when you are starting out for effiecient training. Of course the old hats also make mistakes sometimes or get impatient. It is just a school of thought to subscribe too. That way if you mess up you have someone to blame. I not dissing on running by feel I think/feel that both have their place.
The the word "tempo" is a bit overloaded, though Daniels seems to equate it with Lactate Threshold (LT) pace, but that is not the only definition. Daniels did not invent the term (nor would he tell you he did, I imagine).
Tempo also has a broader definition that (as near as I can tell) predates Daniels' definition. Tempo used to mean anything from about, say, marathon pace all the way up to LT pace. For example, Malmo and Hodgie-San have posted on here often about doing frequent tempo runs of much longer than 25-30 minutes. That was certainly slower than LT pace for them.
Personally, I think it's clearer to use the term "LT pace" to refer to what Daniels' has in mind and "tempo" pace to refer to the MP-to-LT pace range. I think you get a great benefit out of longer tempo runs in this slower pace range. You need not simply do all your runs strictly at LT pace.
That 8% idea seems to work for me. I used to do 4-mile tempo runs at 5:20 pace, and I was running about 15:20 for the 5K at that point. 8% from 5:20 is 4:56.3, or 15:29.6 for 5K.
Thanks for the math review.
You are welcome. In addition to my 8% rule for 5k race predicition of lactate threshold pace (1.08 times your current 5k pace = l.t. pace), my 4% rule is something you could use for 10k prediction of l.t. (provide your not a slower 10k runner...more than about 40 minutes).
4% rule: 1.04 times current 10k race pace = l.t. pace.....
Example: 31 minute 10k race pace = 5:00/ mile or 300 seconds/ mile. 300sec x 1.04 = 312 seconds or 5:12/mile.
HOw do I figure out my LT pace for a 10k, if the goal is to run 28:50, and my 5k is currently 14:25? Would I run 8 mile tempos @ 5:02/mile pace to train for a 10k? Does 10k training require a higher/lower percentage of VO2 max workout?
I'm just guessing, but I seem to recall that the LT runs should be 25-40 minutes in length, so yes, you would run between 5 and 8 miles at that pace.
I don't know if I would change the % of MaxVO2 work if I was running 10K vs. 5K.
I have trained with
Bernard Kisilu (1.44)
Michael Rotich (1.44)
Kenneth Kimwetich (1min43.03)
jogged with in Bushy park
when we were running, Bob told me how 1 week before a steeples race he was running with Moses Kiptanui, except after 500m at 7 minute mile pace, Moses turned to Bob, and said "Bob, you go on, I feel tired, Im going home to sleep". One week later he broke the steeples WR.
The Kenyans I have run with dont have HR monitors, and when they do track intervals, they dont even KNOW what splits they run, because A) They concerntrate on running, not hanging out for split times B) their grasp of english is not so great and they on occasions struggle to understand even simple spoken numbers. Thats why I watched a group of them start a training session, with a mile in 3min56 because RS told themn to do it "quite hard"
You are right, they dont all live in huts, but the staple of their diet is still Ugali, except sometimes they chuck in chicken and carrots.
As for my PRs - that doesnt really matter. But Im sure that if you can put 2 and 2 together, you might realise that if I am doing sessions with guys like Bernard and Michael, and jogging with Noah, Bob and Sammy, then I might just know what I am talking about. The best advancement I ever made in my training was to listen to what the Kenyans told me, and "dont think... just run"
furthermore, I didnt post this (my original) to criticise anyone, or puff my chest out and challenge them on "their PR's" I just gave my advice to a dude who asked for some. What he chooses to do with that is totally up to him.
You make a strong and very important point no calculators. When it all boils down training should come from the inside, not from formulas and calculators. It is fine to back the internal training with external factors but it shouldn't be the other way around.
Steepleboy04: Good questions!
First, your current 5k time of 14:25 is exactly half of your goal 10k time. Your obvious thoughts would be something like this: "Since I can run the 10k goal pace for just 5k now, do I need to do longer workouts to be able to hold pace?"
My answer: 80% of your key workouts should be longer
20% of your key workouts should be faster
The 10k is run at about 4% less on the O2 curve, so yes the emphasis of your workouts should primarily be at lower percentages of your max VO2 pace in order to maximize improvements toward your 10k goal. The 5:02 training pace that you mentioned (your current l.t. pace based on 5k pace X 1.08) is right on the money, but I think you might be sparing in running non-stop 8 milers at your l.t. pace, especially if your endurance isn't as good as your speed.
Based on your current 5k time (14:25), I estimate that your current 10k time is equivalent to 29:59 (5k time of 14:25 x 2.08 = 29:59) which is 4:50/ mile. If your current 10k time is slower than that, then your endurance and strength need to be worked on every week steadily. If your 10k time is faster than 29:59 currently, then your speed, efficiency, and max VO2 need to be worked on.
I think that your 8 mile tempo run at l.t. pace would be fine if done every other week. Other possibilities would be to run a rotation of key workouts during training cycles. I think 2-week cycles do work well.
Feel free to email for further details for your particular case. I enjoy helping motivated runners reach for the sky.
hahaha swoosh, looks like you got BURNED on that one