Dems on Education

madarin wrote:

I'm a public school teacher, and I'm guessing that's what you mean by "insider." I agree, teachers should be a source of inspiration. However, you should also know that blame for lack of achievement and failing schools is constantly placed on educators, and never placed on culture, especially by those at the top. We are fighting a losing battle every single day until individuals lose the PC mentality and begin addressing the real issues.

I'm a public school teacher, in a high school which has gone through a transition in the last 10 years and is now close to 50% free and reduced lunch and getting poorer each year. What do you propose we do about the "real issues" other than to throw up our hands and bitch about them? I work with enough people who do that and obviously, their griping never makes anything better.

Usher wrote:

madarin wrote:

I'm a public school teacher, and I'm guessing that's what you mean by "insider." I agree, teachers should be a source of inspiration. However, you should also know that blame for lack of achievement and failing schools is constantly placed on educators, and never placed on culture, especially by those at the top. We are fighting a losing battle every single day until individuals lose the PC mentality and begin addressing the real issues.

I'm a public school teacher, in a high school which has gone through a transition in the last 10 years and is now close to 50% free and reduced lunch and getting poorer each year. What do you propose we do about the "real issues" other than to throw up our hands and bitch about them? I work with enough people who do that and obviously, their griping never makes anything better.

Buddy, I sure as hell don't have the answer. But the first step to solving any problem is identifying the problem. Once people stop blaming the system, the teachers, and the curriculum, and start looking at the root of the problem, then a solution can be found.

madarin wrote:

Buddy, I sure as hell don't have the answer. But the first step to solving any problem is identifying the problem. Once people stop blaming the system, the teachers, and the curriculum, and start looking at the root of the problem, then a solution can be found.

It sounds like we both have been kicked around a little bit by this issue. May your quest for excellence be a productive one.

I taught in DC for two years. The first year the school was literally out of control. Students roamed the hallways during class vandalizing the building without consequences. It was a nightmare. A lof of that had to do with the complete incompetence of the administration.

The second year I taught in a school with a more solid administration. The school had a dean, and there were disciplinary recourses. Yet, my students still entered the 8th grade unable to add decimals. Some couldn't do long division. Some of the skills my students lacked are learned in first and second grade.

The question we need to answer is: Why are these students not getting to first grade on grade level? The obvious answer is that the students are not entering first grade with the tools to progress at the rate dictated by NCLB, etc. The problem is that these kids fall behind, and then they can't learn anything from that point on, because the material is over their heads.

It sounds crazy, but I think the solution is tracking, and lowered standards for some kids. That is essentially what happens anyway, except now we have to pretend it's not.

luv2run wrote:

You are right they do not get paid for the summer. Let's say that is 2 months. A teacher earning $24K (national average) makes that over 10 months. Pro-rate that out and they make $28K. Some teachers choose to teach summer school. Some work another job to make some money.

I know plenty of people who make $24K right out of college working 12 months.

And do not give me this "Teachers work at night grading papers". Plenty of other professionals take work home with them.

I don't understand...is 24k a lot? Or even decent? That comes out to about 10$ an hour or so, a little more maybe. For requiring a college education that is pretty weak methinks...

hatemetoday wrote:

luv2run wrote:

You are right they do not get paid for the summer. Let's say that is 2 months. A teacher earning $24K (national average) makes that over 10 months. Pro-rate that out and they make $28K. Some teachers choose to teach summer school. Some work another job to make some money.

I know plenty of people who make $24K right out of college working 12 months.

And do not give me this "Teachers work at night grading papers". Plenty of other professionals take work home with them.

I don't understand...is 24k a lot? Or even decent? That comes out to about 10$ an hour or so, a little more maybe. For requiring a college education that is pretty weak methinks...

This individual also doesn't understand pay raises for teachers either. 24-28k out of college isn't that bad.

However, most professions give raises to their works at 5% our higher every year. I know in my state the average raise from year to year is 1.5%-2% for teachers. Keep in mind in teaching it doesn't matter how hard you work you get paid the same as the next guy who doesn't work at all.

It teaching it doesn't pay to work hard (that's part of the problem) because you get nothing for your work. In the private world it pays to work harder.

DC Teaching fellow wrote:

The question we need to answer is: Why are these students not getting to first grade on grade level? The obvious answer is that the students are not entering first grade with the tools to progress at the rate dictated by NCLB, etc. The problem is that these kids fall behind, and then they can't learn anything from that point on, because the material is over their heads.

It sounds crazy, but I think the solution is tracking, and lowered standards for some kids. That is essentially what happens anyway, except now we have to pretend it's not.

Your argument makes sense, and I think you may be right. At the very least, there is a lot of truth in what you are saying.

People not in education will have no idea that tracking was argued for decades and finally vilified, and there's almost no tracking done anymore. However, it does make sense becuase it gives students what they need. The problem is how to lessen the social effects of it (remember the Leave It to Beaver episode where he was put in the "dumb reading group?").

I've taught in similar schools to yours--kids roaming the halls, drug dealers hanging out in front of the school, and I once watched 3 guys robbing a house for three hours in broad daylight right outside my classroom window! You have to meet the kids where they are. You can't make them come to you.

I taught 8th grade math in a wealthy district. By the end of the first week I knew who the kids were that couldn't do 5th grade math. I did not have the option of slowing down for them--they had to catch up to me. I discovered that even in wealthy districts those couple of kids weren't going to learn if I couldn't modify my lessons to their needs.

It's pretty simple. If you pay teachers comparable salaries to administrative assistants, dental hygenists, retail managers, etc., then that is the caliber of skill and intelligence you are going to attract to the profession.

If you want young, talented individuals from upper tier universities to pass up careers in medicine, law, engineering, business, etc., then you have to pay them a decent salary.

There are a select few people that give up lucrative careers to teach in public schools, but we cannot solve the education crisis in this country by depending on altruisim.

The fact that there are people on this thread arguing that teachers are paid fairly shows how little we value education as a society.

DC Teaching fellow wrote:

It's pretty simple. If you pay teachers comparable salaries to administrative assistants, dental hygenists, retail managers, etc., then that is the caliber of skill and intelligence you are going to attract to the profession.

If you want young, talented individuals from upper tier universities to pass up careers in medicine, law, engineering, business, etc., then you have to pay them a decent salary.

There are a select few people that give up lucrative careers to teach in public schools, but we cannot solve the education crisis in this country by depending on altruisim.

The fact that there are people on this thread arguing that teachers are paid fairly shows how little we value education as a society.

Well said.

A Teacher Too wrote:

I make $38K as a high school American History teacher after 5+ years w/a Masters. I work evenings and weekends doing exactly what you've asked me not to mention; grading papers and preparing lessons plans. If I'm doing my job, I require papers and tests. I have a few standards. Therefore, I don't go the multiple choice route so my 10 year old can't grade my tests. I read each essay. I comment on each one. Spend some time in a teacher's shoes and your opinion will change. It might change rather quickly if you actually spent some time in a school.

Problem with that is most of my hs teachers went the multiple choice route. Spare english teachers- whom I suspect spend the most time away from class working.

The the hs I just went to, the teachers contract called for them teaching 5 of the 8 periods of the school day, and being 'available' for another period of study hall or labs(math study lab). They raised a big stink when the district a few years ago wanted teachers to do 6 periods per day.

Lets say you work for 7 of the 8 periods of a school day.

You still have the 50 minute period off to do planning. You have the 45 minute lunch break. Class is out at 3:15- you have another hour and a half or more after that.

I find it hard to believe many teachers-save a few- are spending their evening hours working on this stuff- and if they are they didnt manage their time better during the day.

Also, as a teacher , dont you get the money back by going and getting your masters. Once you get your masters your pay grade goes up?

And why, especially with so many of us young people- is it assumed just getting a masters gives you a god given right to a lot more money. Like its that simple.

problem with that wrote:

You still have the 50 minute period off to do planning.

Well, you should. It's written into most union agreements.

You have the 45 minute lunch break.

45 minutes??? 25-30 is the standard here.

Also, as a teacher , dont you get the money back by going and getting your masters. Once you get your masters your pay grade goes up?

That's correct. There's about a $2,000 - $3,500 difference/yr here between degrees.

I teach at a public high school in the South and make a damned fine salary: $64,000, including coaching supplements for track and cross country. I won't complain about the money, because I could easily bump up to $70,000 if I wanted to work in the summer months, but I don't. Good to go on that one.

I do tend to work a lot: during season about 11 hours per weekday and a lot on Saturdays when we have meets. I work every Sunday, planning, grading, and so on. It's a life--can't complain about that either. It's a good job, and I'm happy and successful doing it.

Here are some of the problems that I see with public education:

1) Because so many parents don't have their own lives together, for whatever reason, I have to help surrogate parent their kids in my classroom or on my teams. You might argue, "But all you have to do is teach English or coach cross country! It's not your job to help parent!" The problem with that point of view is that, until that kid's basic needs are met--food, clothing, sanity--that kid is going to struggle to learn English in any classroom, whether I'm Mr. Brilliant or not.

2) Because of the availability of new technologies, such as email and online grade programs (like k12Planet), parents have the ability to look over the teachers' shoulders and micro-manage their kids' classroom performance. Rather than actually call, conference, or speak in person, parents now have the ability and the time to overwhelm teachers with questions, comments, and demands every day of the week, at all hours, for every assignment we post on the stupid online grade program. Drives me nuts. Rather than teach their kids to work out their issues regarding grades, parents do it for them.

3) Many other parents just totally abdicate any responsibility for their kids' performance whatsoever. I guess that's not unusual, but it certainly does impact the kids' ability to perform.

4) We are spending so much money on technology--DVD players, digital projectors, laptops, desktop computers, and so on, that we are not spending money where we could actually make more difference in the skills and knowledge we are teaching kids, namely in hiring more teachers.

5) Disciplining kids in public schools is a sketchy proposition, for a variety of reasons. Every time you discipline a kid, you've got to deal with getting hammered by their parents or lawyer. You've got special ed. laws that protect kids with disabilities but which also enable some of them who misbehave to get away with behaviors that regular ed. kids can't get away with. I see that happen several times per month in my school district, and I work in one of the best districts you'll find.

6) Generally-speaking, school districts are too large: they have huge bureaucracies that waste money, are inefficient at managing people, parents, kids, and curriculum, and easily lose touch with their mission of educating kids.

Teaching is a great profession, and I get more positive reinforcement for what I do in that profession than most people get in non-teaching professions. When was the last time your accountant won an award and appeared in the paper? How about your plumber? I promise that the god ones in my area get plenty of positive strokes.

Does the profession encourage mediocrity? In some schools and systems, it does seem to do so--where the culture of the administration, board, and community does not demand and reward excellence. I worked in a couple of schools where that was the case. But I've also worked for 7 years in a system that demands the best I've got on a daily basis and for which I am committed to giving the best I've got on a daily basis.

It's out there, in a lot of places, but you may have to ook for it.

A Teacher Too wrote:

You still have the 50 minute period off to do planning. You have the 45 minute lunch break. Class is out at 3:15- you have another hour and a half or more after that.

Not to be mean but no teacher has a 45 minute lunch break. Try at best 30 minutes and on average 20-25 minutes.

And if you happen to teach in the South, where there are no Unions, then you will probably have to do duties during your lunch break. The best you can manage is eating a sandwich while you stand up watching 500 kids eat.

Also to the guy who makes 65,000 a year teaching in the South. Where do you work? I teach in the South and I have my grad degree and National Boards (working on my Doctorate) and I will top out after 30 years at only 58,000 in my state.

I love my job and wouldn't change for anything. However, I also realize there are a lot of problems in are country's education system. I have a hard time understanding why teachers get most of the blame for the problems when they have the least amount of power in the system.

There are a lot of good teachers out there, however, their hands are tied by people who have no understanding of education.

Im just relaying things I not too long ago noticed. Teachers had their own teachers lounge and many would go there often.

We had an english teacher that had us do 5 major papers for the semester. Each one would take over a week to grade. She commented one time how she spent her whole weekend reading and grading papers. I can see how that type of teacher takes more time.

But even if your lunch time is correct, I still contend that most teachers have the 3:30-5:30 time to do many of those things. Thats 2 hours every day. Even assuming 1 day you have meetings after class. Here they also have professional days-where our coach(also a teacher) said you spend about 4-5 hours in break-out meetings with other teachers- and the rest of the day for whatever(grading, lesson planning, etc.)

I dont doubt that teaching is in many ways a very frustrating position- dealing with kids the way they can be, and probably worse parents and all that with little administrative support.

Many, many jobs have things you sometimes have to take home with you, working in the evening. Teachers do to, sometimes. Pointing out that teachers dont have to work for 1.5-2 months out of the year in most cases is correct.

I dont live in the south, but in this district so many of the teachers have been around for years and years- in some cases doing many of the same things over and over. Perhaps part of the problem is no one has come up with an effective system of grading our TEACHERS as well as students. Guarenteed wage increases year over year- yet what seems to be little accountability. Why is no child left behind so hated by teachers? Instead of just criticizing it, where are the alternatives? In crappy districts like many major metropolitan one- with- lets be honest- some very good teachers mixed in with some really bad ones and an apparent inept administration- the concern seems to be keeping the status quo and protecting jobs and yearly pay increases versus how to improve the educational system.

Whats so bad about standards? Yes, the emphasis goes to passing the tests- but if those students werent passing those test before is that such a bad thing? Isnt it a good start, not the finished product.

In my state (Tennessee) the standards are embarrassingly low for the NLCB-mandated tests. If you set the standard low enough, even Gomer Pyle can pass the test.

I agree wholeheartedly that the way we pay teachers for experience (with step raises) ignores the fact that many don't earn their raises. I'd like to see merit raises. I'd also like a little bonus for coaching winning teams, since that does bring praise to my district. There's nothing wrong with performance incentives!

I do have a 1 hour planning period and a 1 hour lunch. I work through both (by choice) because that's the only way to get it all done. You may notice that English teachers generally have more work to do than teachers of some other subjects like, say P.E.

Not to be offensive here but if you have to ask why teachers are frustrated with NCLB then you have no understanding whatsoever what NCLB is doing to our school system...

There is nothing wrong with accountability...however that is not NCLB.

NCLB handcuffs teachers and focuses on what is not in the best interest of the students.'

Once again NCLB was developed by individuals that have had no involvement with education and the experts they have talk to have not been in the classroom in 20 years...

Please Please actually read up on the creation of the legislation...you will then begin to understand how ineffective it actually is.

I want accountability for teachers...however, I want effective accountability not the junk that NCLB tries to offer.

I also like that idea of merit pay, however, it has many problems...

If you initiate merit pay then you get teachers who focus more on sucking up to the administration rather than working to get their students to pass a test...

Merit pay want really increase teacher proficienticy....

What it will increase is teachers competing for honors and AP classes which will easily perform better on the standardized tests.

There is no easy answer to improving education....

I am a firm believer that if you increase the average salary all around then you will get better teachers....

Right now there is no motivation for good quality people to become teachers because they can make more money being a doctor or a lawyer...if you make it worth their while then you will get smart, more motivated, and highly educated individuals to become teachers...

Right now the individuals that become teachers are mostly (key work is mostly, not all) bottom of the barrel students who took the job because they could slack off and do little work if they wanted to.

Raise the pay of teachers and you will raise the level of education mainly because you will attract smarter people to the profession.

That's the strangest myth. Where does that come from? I've always been surrounded by bright people. I've worked with a few dummies, but not THAT many.

johnny rotten wrote:

That's the strangest myth. Where does that come from? I've always been surrounded by bright people. I've worked with a few dummies, but not THAT many.

From your post above, it seems clear that you work in one of the better paying districts in the south. Maybe that's why you don't work with many "dummies".