Dems on Education

As a teacher for the past four years, I can testify that teaching is difficult. The vacation does not make up for the fact that we put in 60plus hours per week during the school year. Yea, the pay sucks. Starting pay is low, average pay is low, and high end pay extremely low. Discipline is also crap because very few teachers have the courage to stand up the parents that will ALWAYS back up their kid, no matter what. It makes discipline very difficult.

I disagree completely, though, with anyone that thinks that local government should control education.

Look, I am no fan of NCLB and the hoops that it has caused everyone to jump through, but local/state control over education is part of the problem. Every state has different values and different standards that must be met. This creates tons of confusion and a lot of crap standards out there. Also, if I am good teacher in one state, why, all of sudden, am I unable to even teach in another state? This is because each state gets to decide how to certify teachers. Also, you talk about 'good' teachers, but what does that mean? Some states that means you pass a test, others a portfolio review. All crap.

If you want to fix education, bring control to the national level. Set the standards at the national level and allow states only a little room for variance (ie. some states may want to require spanish, swimming, native american studies, etc). Create a national method of certifying teachers. This would allow teachers for freedom to move. Create a minimum salary schedule for teachers at the national level but allow states to increase it if needed. The feds still would give a certain amount of money to the states to distribute to schools. The states, then, would have to determine if they wanted/needed to add more to that amount.

These simple suggestions would allow teachers more freedom to move around and teach where needed. If, for example, Montana needed teachers, it could attract teachers by raising pay. This would make things easier.

Lastly, if you truly want to determine if a teacher is 'good' or not, you have to do honest observation and evaluation. A standardized test or a portfolio does not show you anything. Anyone can study for a test. Anyone can write some bullshit to put into a portfolio. If an administrator takes the time to sit in a teachers classroom often(more than just once a semester or year), it will become very obvious who is a good teacher and who is not.

Unfortunately, these things rarely happen and education in America is a complete mess. Teachers are poor, students are poor, and learning is not happening the way it could. It is sad...

I just wanted to throw this out there: Should all teachers be paid the same? I, for one, think that math and science teachers should get paid the most, followed by humanities teachers. Music and physical education teachers shouldn´t hardly get paid anything. Why? The best music and physical education teachers are the ones who don´t do it for the money, while incentive is necessary to attract talented people in math and sciences. Once again, humanities teachers fall somewhere in between.

1. The constitution was written hundreds of years ago, when it was a lot harder for people to travel from one state to another. It makes sense for the federal government to have more power now than it did back then. I do wish these gradual changes in the balance of power between the three branches of government occured more often by constitutional amendments.

2. Many of our country's problems can only be solved by making national laws. If you have two states that neighbor each other, it's a big problem if one of them is filled with uneducated nitwits and the other isn't (and now you know where my biases lie) because people might move from one state to the other.

For example, the federal government might be better suited to fund the University of California school system than the state of California. The primary reason why the state of California finances this school system is to educate its future residents. If only half the people that go to the schools stay in California, clearly this benefits the state less than if all of htem were to stay in California (this is one reason why out-of-state tuition is higher for most state schools -- but they can't control for the number of people who have been California residents all their lives and decide to leave anyway). Since there would be more of a benefit to the state of California if you could guarantee that all of the people who graduate from the UC system will stay in the state, this, in turn, would lead to more state funding for these schools. However, it is MUCH more likely that residents of California stay inside the entire United States than just the state of California (since California is a sub-set of the United States), so it is a much better investment for the federal government to invest in education in our country than for the individual states to do so, and this benefits everyone.

Not a teacher wrote:

I just wanted to throw this out there: Should all teachers be paid the same? I, for one, think that math and science teachers should get paid the most, followed by humanities teachers. Music and physical education teachers shouldn´t hardly get paid anything. Why? The best music and physical education teachers are the ones who don´t do it for the money, while incentive is necessary to attract talented people in math and sciences. Once again, humanities teachers fall somewhere in between.

Hmm... I think talented music teachers are probably in short supply. Just guessing; I've always been impressed by musicians. I took lessons when I was little but never had any talent.

Equal funding of schools nationally, means equal per pupil funding of schools, equal pay for teachers, and equal facilities for all public schools in the United States. Eliminating property-tax based public school funding, removes one of the most wicked mechanisms of racial discrimination in the United States today.

When you think about how the United States treats it's children, it is a real shame. Do you ever see a police or fire department without sufficient equipment and money in the United States, no, and they are local, county, and state agencies. Federal funds make up for the lack of local funds. The post office, interstate highways, etc. are funded equally nationwide. Public schools should be treated the same as highways, police, fir, post office, etc.

There is a direct correlation between the money that is invested in education and the prosperity of a society. Look at Ireland. The rise of the Irish economy whose per capita income now exceeds that of the Uk is directly related to investment in education, healthcare and other social services. If the USA continues to neglect education...elementary education for that matter and the current trends continue...we will no longer have a labor force that remains competitive on a Global level. All those people clammering teachers are paid too mcuh or not enough will have their "important Jobs" outsourced to other countries

Bull sh-t on Ireland post. It was the poorest of the western european countries until the computer boom. It also became user friendly to big bussiness. Many of whom set up shop because of lower land prices and tax breaks.

Not a teacher wrote:

Should all teachers be paid the same? I, for one, think that math and science teachers should get paid the most, followed by humanities teachers. Music and physical education teachers shouldn´t hardly get paid anything.

That's an interesting argument, and I see where you are coming from. I'm not sure I agree though.

aTeacher wrote:

How you're paid depends a lot on where you live and work. The south pays horrible--and many of their school systems rank among the worst.

Just stating salaries is not showing the entire picture. Salaries compared to an area's cost-of-living is what really matters. When teaching salaries are compared to the cost-of-living, guess where teachers come out ahead - the South and the Midwest.

Your money will go a lot further in Memphis, Nashville, Atlanta, Austin, Houston, San Antonio, Louisville, and countless other southern cities than it would in Boston, SoCal, NorCal, NY, etc.

I have yet to see any evidence showing a positive correlation between higher teacher salaries and high standardized test scores. I believe South Dakota pays the least in the nation, yet the kids there do just fine on tests.

Young Buck wrote:

Now who's the f***ing idiot? So unless you know what you're talkin' about SHUT THE F

You must be one ignorant sonuvabitch to think that every school district is the same, and every state. IDIOT!

So you're saying that states and districts DO have control over their school systems, it's not JUST the federal government, as you Repubs would have us believe.

I love it when people go apesh!t on this board. They just make absolute fools out of themselves. Good laugh to start the day, thanks, young buck.

Not a teacher wrote:

I, for one, think that math and science teachers should get paid the most, followed by humanities teachers. Music and physical education teachers shouldn´t hardly get paid anything. Why? The best music and physical education teachers are the ones who don´t do it for the money, while incentive is necessary to attract talented people in math and sciences. Once again, humanities teachers fall somewhere in between.

I'm certified to teach math and special education. I can tell you: teaching music is the most time consuming position in a school. Marching band has practices at night (usually after dinner) during the week, football games on the week-ends, etc. Orchestras and choirs have shows on week-ends and in the evenings. And music teachers have to go "adjudicate" at competitions like solo and ensemble festivals for other schools. If they don't go adjudicate for others, their school's students won't be invited to similar festivals. The adjudications require you to drive long distances on Friday nights, stay in a motel, the work all day Saturday (for free) judging these festivals. Then your school will not pay for you to stay a second night in a motel, so you have to drive home exhausted (usually 3 hours or more because the festivals will not be close to home--or else your own students would be participating and you wouldn't be able to judge).

Music teachers must also do fund raising activities like choir or band boosters. That's a whole lot of fun.

I have kids of my own at home I want to pay attention to without being gone so much. At least coaching sports after school brings a paltry pay increase. Music teachers are just expected to put in all those extra hours and they don't get any extra pay. No thanks!

And, for the record, music is one of the humanities. So I'm not sure where you would have them be paid in that multi-tiered salary system.

Are teachers rich? No. Do they make above average pay? Hell yes! In most districts you have the option of being paid for only the 9 months you are in school OR having it stretched out for 12 months.

From Dept of Labor:

Median annual earnings of kindergarten, elementary, middle, and secondary school teachers ranged from $41,400 to $45,920 in May 2004; the lowest 10 percent earned $26,730 to $31,180; the top 10 percent earned $66,240 to $71,370. Median earnings for preschool teachers were $20,980.

For 9 months of work you get paid 41-45k, you get about 3 months of vacation and more vacation days throughout the work year than most. Yes you'll have your "teacher in-service" days but I know how those go...sit, sit, sit, la da di la da di. But what if you want to work something part-time during the summer? Ah yes...summer school...:) That's usually at your same pay rate. So now we're talking about upwards of 60k a year as the median salary.

Plus you have guaranteed raises no matter how bad or good you teach. You have the strongest union that's ever been placed on this planet. Unless you break the law you can't be fired. If you screw up they'll place you on "administrative duty".

So can we put the "teachers don't make enough money" argument to bed? No one ever makes enough money. If they did then unions would be out of work.

I will say this...Teaching is a tough job. You have to deal with kids. I don't know if I could do that. That's why I work in a gym making peanuts instead of working as a PE or Health teacher. I didn't want to go through and get the degree and find out I couldn't stand the kids. I know a lot of people who have had that happen. All is gravy until they actually have to deal with kids. More power to ya.

Alan

not a teacher as well wrote:

I believe South Dakota pays the least in the nation, yet the kids there do just fine on tests.

Ha. Not my students.

Young Buck wrote:

They still get paychecks DURING the summer. Their wages are salary based.

Not necessarily. My HS coach opted to not have it averaged out throughout the year.

My wife has been teaching for 13 years in a public ES. She makes 84K base salary, no summer school. Teaches in a tough neighborhood. Loves her job. Is worth every damn penny. She could consult and make more, but finds meaning to in her job teaching kids. If you ask me its a great job but I could never do it.

Please read my post in a gentle voice, Alan, because I've seen many of your posts before and you seem like a rvery normal, reasonable person.

My school year ends somewhere between June 15 - 20. We must come back to work about August 10 -15. Students return a week (sometimes two weeks) after we get back.

That is not three months. There is usually no summer teaching work available to me that I am qualified for. However, I'm free to get a part-time job for crappy pay (I painted houses for a summer) if I so choose. Now I just stay home spending time with my kids, who are also off school. My wife works all day, so I guess it saves us on daycare.

The National Education Association (NEA) is a powerful union, but not nearly as powerful as doctors' unions like the American Medical Association (AMA). However, even they are no match for the CORPORATIONS that have lobbiests in petroleum, pharmaceuticals, alcohol, tobacco, firearms, meat/dairy industry, and on and on. Also, many teachers do not belong to the NEA. I belong to the National Federation of Teachers (NFT), which is nowhere near as powerful as the NEA. Many teachers, in the south especially, have no union representation at all.

I'm glad I'm a teacher. I just don't understand the bashing. My sister is a nurse. She's highly educated and trained (like me), but she still knits/crochets about one blanket a month while she's at work (I don't even have time to pee during the day). She makes great money and works four days (longer shifts) a week. I don't necessarily want to bash nurses and start calling that easy and overpaid.

Keller wrote:

My wife has been teaching for 13 years in a public ES. She makes 84K base salary, no summer school. Teaches in a tough neighborhood. Loves her job. Is worth every damn penny. She could consult and make more, but finds meaning to in her job teaching kids. If you ask me its a great job but I could never do it.

Wow, where the heck is this? My old man was a teacher and topped out in 2006 at $53k, with a Master's degree and lots of continuing ed, with 30 years experience. Midwest medium sized city.

I made more than him 2 years out of college.

Neuropsychiatrist wrote:

There is a direct correlation between the money that is invested in education and the prosperity of a society.

Wrong. Take a look at D.C. public schools. You are not going to find another district that spends more on education, and gets worse results.

We can talk about funding and national/regional control all day long. However, the only way to fix public education in the U.S. is to fix the cultures that children face at home. However, due to the politically correct system we have in place, we will never see a change, and there will always be an achievement gap.

NYC

Harlem

In case you didn't catch the irony, I was mocking him. Like I really care if an anonymous poster calls me an idiot? Now I bet you feel all high and mighty, pretending to get a kick out of me. Good one.

And you sure like to put words in my mouth huh? Typical liberal. haha