why does ritz always run close to race pace

This is not a serious question is it?

Ritz is well known for training under the philosophy that there are two types of training an athlete should do: 1) training at race pace, and 2) training that prepares the athlete to run at race pace. So in all his workouts he is really trying to hit race pace. This is why "I" pace isn't important to him; he thinks any benefits like raising VO2 max, recruiting fast-twitch muscle fibers, etc. are much less important than the ones he reeps training at race pace.

Unfortunately, when you're one of the best in the country it's often quite difficult to hit your goal race pace or even your current PR race pace. This is why he has to say "or close to race pace." He can basically run the marathon at 5:00/mile. But there are probably days in training when 5:05 is the fastest he can manage for his 8-14 mile workouts.

This is not a serious answer is it?

malmo wrote:

This is not a serious answer is it?

Which answer? His or yours? So far he actually contributed something other than your pretentious shite.

PepsiTwist wrote:

Which answer? His or yours? So far he actually contributed something other than your pretentious shite.

Is he speaking for Ritzenhein?

malmo wrote:

PepsiTwist wrote:

Which answer? His or yours? So far he actually contributed something other than your pretentious shite.

Is he speaking for Ritzenhein?

Not that I'm aware. Perhaps your point is that only Ritz or Hudson can truly answer this question, but I dont think it hurts to try and give an educated opinion.

I have no idea what "I" pace or "M" pace could possibly be, but every runner I've ever known has trained for races by running race pace. Why would one need to pontificate (er "educate") to explain the obvious?

Troll-meter on Malmo: 4/10

I is interval pace and M is marathon pace. the question is why does ritz always seem to indicate he trains at or just below goal pace. he does this with intervals when preparing for track and with marathon-paced runs when preparing for the marathon (see the flocasts interviews, etc).

a lot of runners indicate the importance of training at goal pace for intervals, etc or mention 10 miles at marathon pace but ritz seems to have a little different story.

OK, so if I pace is interval pace, that's around 5K pace, which is what he runs when getting ready for track season. M pace is marathon pace, which is what he runs in prep for a marathon. Why do you say he doesn't run I and M paces? Looks like he does it all the time. (I assume you mean the Daniels definitions more or less.)

Thanks, I always thought that "M" pace was the amount of time to be blinded off a poker table.

also its not because of training partners, like they all run together, because when preparing for the 8k champs ritz, torres, and hartman all had different times for the 12k worth of work they did (8k pace, 4k float).

3/6limit wrote:

so whats the deal, whats wrong with I or M pace? or is this standard practice for elites.

What's the deal with Daniels' formula being the only way to train according to those on this board? Methinks plenty of athletes have had plenty of success using other methods.

Ummmmm....

Training for a 5k? Do workouts at 5k pace

Training for a 10k? Do workouts at 10k pace

Training for a half marathon? Do workouts at half marathon pace.

Training for a marathon? Do workouts at marathon pace.

I swear to god the internet has been the bane of young distance running. Too much info. Too much banging your head into a wall. You want to run a 15:00 5k? Do repeat 1000s at 3:00. How many? I don't freaking know, you figure it out. How much recover? Again, I don't know, figure it out. Once you figure it out you go from there. Let's say you can do 8 x 1000m in 3:00 with 3:00 rest. Where do you go from here? Reduce the rest to 2:00. If you can't complete that workout then reduce the number of 1000s to 6. So let's say you're down to 6x1000m in 3:00 with 2:00 rest. Now what? Reduce the rest to 1:00. Now we're getting somewhere Skippy! Can't run 6 x 1k at 3:00 with 1:00 rest? Reduce to 5x1k. Now you're doing 5x1k at 3:00 with 1:00 rest? Where to now? Now you race.

Once you have the pace set you have a number of variables to change over time as you become better: Distance run, number of runs, rest interval. Figure it out.

Want to run a 2:10 marathon? Run for a long time at that pace. Run a long run with half easy, half at that pace. Do repeats (3-5 miles) at that pace. Figure....It....Out.

Alan

Normally I think you're pretty smart, Alan, but I do not agree that all the ignorant old ways of training are superior to science. It's better to read some and experiment with your training to find the best method than to blindly go, "uh yeah, I want to run a 15:00 5k so I think I'll just run at 15:00 pace a bunch." What good is a workout of 20 x 1000k at 15:00 pace with 20 minutes rest between intervals? Also, what's the point of reducing rest until you're basically running a race with 15 second breaks every 1000m? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Sure Daniels' has coined the terms of T, I, M, E, and R paces, but these paces all match up almost identically with many others'. Whether you call the pace you can maintain for 8-11 minutes I, interval, VO2 max, aerobic capacity, etc pace, it's still the same pace and most everyone agrees it is the best pace for improving one's VO2 max.

What the OP was commenting on was how Ritz seems to do a lot of pretty much racing in practice. I'm not an elite and I don't know what's best for Ritz. He's much faster than I am so I'm not about to lecture him on the correct way to train. I just thought I'd rant a bit.

Race pace is a real life pace of some race distance, so M. pace would be date or goal pace for his marathon. I. pace is nearly 3k/5k pace, also producing maxO2 effort thus stimulating the aerobic system to improve & improving those race paces.

Sounds logical to me, how would you go about training?

" Also, what's the point of reducing rest until you're basically running a race with 15 second breaks every 1000m?"

Who the hell said anything about 15 second breaks? I said 5 x 1k at 3:00 with 1:00 breaks, and that is at the end of a long progression, a season long progression starting with 3:00 rest. I said nothing about 15 second breaks anywhere.

The point is this:

What is the purpose of training? To prepare to race. The less rest between repeats the more it mimics a race. That is the fundamental strategy behind interval training, which has been lost over time. To break up a race into manageable segments. INTERVAL refers to the rest. Interval training is all about the rest. You run a 1000, you rest, you repeat. To make the workout harder you reduce the rest. I know the science, I have a BS in Ex. Sci, but that doesn't mean shit. My dog could get a BS in Ex. Sci. The science simply explains the results, it explains what should already be known and what should already be learned through actual training, the trial and error experimentation of one runner. Yes of course you should run shorter and faster reps from time to time and yes of course you run longer and slightly slower workouts, but the bulk of your training should be around race pace. Anything else just isn't logical. Each week you should do something at race pace. Your other workout is either a little above or below race pace.

If you can't run 5 x 1k in 3:00 with 1:00 rest then how in the hell are you going to run 15:00 in a race? Luck? Heart? BS. It's not a workout you should do every week, but it is a workout, perhaps a final workout, that you should be able to do. Others could be 2 miles at 5k pace OR 2 x 2500 at 5k pace. If you can do either of those two a week before your 5k race you should be fine. Again if you can't run 2 miles in practice at your planned 5k pace then you better come up with another plan. Likewise, if you can't run 2 x 2500 (400-800m rest) at planned 5k pace in practice then you better come up with another plan.

How is Ritz going to go through half-way in 1:04-05 if he doesn't do it in training? That's not racing, thats smart training to prepare to race.

Alan

Guppy wrote:

Sure Daniels' has coined the terms of T, I, M, E, and R paces,

What the f***? Did he invent the wheel and fire too?

2 different philosophies.

One is to focus on running systems and run the ideal paces to improve them.

The other is to fixate on race pace and ignore running systems.

I know plenty of successful people that follow both philosophies.

Your example, how can you not run 5x1k in 3:00 with 1:00 rest and then race 15:00?

That's easy: You run 8x1k in 3:00 with 2:00 rest. You run a lot of 5-6x1mile in 5:13 with 1:00 rest. And you run some 12-16x400m in 65secs. (Right off the VDOT tables for a 15:00 5k). You don't have to train at race pace to be successful.