Do they test for EPO in big HS meets?

there are plenty of resources on the web with instructions on how to administer safely. you guys are like the "Reefer Madness" movie - "that Sweet 'PILL' that MAKES LIFE BITTER!" "WOMEN CRY FOR IT - MEN DIE FOR IT!" "Drug-Crazed Abandon"

You gys all need to know that EPO is pretty much harmless. It is only dangerous when used in incredibly high amounts on amazingly fit people. I dont think this young man is going to have a resting heart rate of 32 beats per min. If he did, then it could be dangerous, but only if his crit was high as well (well over the 50 mark).

Everytime i hear about EPO it is paired with dangerous when in fact it is not. Monitor your crit....either with a zipocrit or by going to the doctor for regular blood checks. If you get to the point where you are well above 50 for your hematocrit then consider cycling off for a while, using asprin, and possibly an IV of saline or two everyone in a while.

Or you can just wake up three times a night and two some jumping jacks and exercises as some of the Ski teams do.

No, they test for emo.

I'm well aware of many of the websites. It still can be difficult for a first timer to inject themselves without the presence of someone who knows what they're doing.

He's a schmuck HS kid. He shouldn't be fooling around with PEDs.

If you are worried about someone tracing your IP use a proxy. The proxy machine, and not your home computer, will be recorded in the logs of the web server of the site that you don't want to be detected by. For added protection, use a proxy based in another country.

A quick google search of "internet proxy" will find you lots. One example is:

http://www.gostealthy.com/

which makes your connection appear to come from Germany.

I think this kid's post makes total sense and I think it gets to the heart of the matter for world class African runners -- and the argument for why it is absolutely rational for them to be systematically cheating.

This young guy is smart enough to know that getting into a great college is hard and even if you work hard and get good grades you probably won't get in. If this young kid has some talent and is dedicated to doing his workouts, EPO would absolutely have an impact on his ability to train and race. If he can run 16:00 of 5k at low altitude, he might very well be able to go under 15 after of year of use (probably administered). With reasonable grades and good SAT scores this might get him an invite to a top college. The trick is that you don't need a scholarship. A lot of top universities have need blind addmissions. Once you are admitted, if you parents can't pay, you get a "scholarship" which you never have to repay and you never have to run to hold onto it. If you show up to the first day of practice as a Freshman and you decide not to run (basically because you really are not as fast as you appeared and you have quit using PEDs), that is fine. The university does not care. It is your choice. The coach got you in, but has no ability to impact your "scholarship" or your enrollment in school. Problem solved. You now get your top university degree (which you will have no problem of getting if you do the work) and you go onto a great law school or business school with that top degree. You unquestionably have a leg up on the students that didn't get into the top college. His life will be irreversibily altered, because he "cheated" to get noticed by a coach.

His question about doing this and how one might do it is totally rational. In fact, you could argue that someone in his situation who doesn't consider this is irrational.

Having said all of this, I would argue that his is exactly the thinking that goes on with young, talented east Afterican running talent. They run well enough to get spotted by Dr. Rosalard, Mr. Testorosa, Mr. HoganHeros, Mr. Hermansmunster, Mr. MacDonaldsfarm (you name your own sports agent/doctor/coach here ... ) and you get chosen to fly to Europe or America and train for a year. You get treated to a systematic PEDs program and eventually either get sent home or you win a few thousand dollars in prize money (maybe even millions). Those few thousands are worth millions to these guys and millions are worth billions. Look at some of their stories. These guy had no where to go but up. Life filled with so much misery and difficulty that there really is no down side to putting western medicines that have been approved by the FDA into your body. You have to remember that these drugs are administered to cancer patients everyday. These drugs were designed to SAVE life not take it. These drugs are widely, widely, widely tested everyday. They have a huge upside and a very small downside. These choices make sense.

To get back to the young kids question: "Should I do this and how do I do it?" I say, be careful, but if you can find a doctor that is willing to oversee your program, I say go for it and blog about your experience. I think the more that people expose the ridiculous ease at which someone can do what these worldclass athletes are doing the sooner sports can return to being just sports and not a big cynical money making machine for agents, ad execs, sports administrators and coaches and become something worth pursuing for it's own sake.

All the world records total are totally bogus and the athletes that work the hardest to voice their outrage toward doping or almost always the ones who are systematically doping themselves. The world of cycling has proven this point over the last ten years and anyone who doesn't think that the same culture exists in running is living in the Truman Show.

Running fast by cheating = LOSER no matter how you slice it.

You may be faster but you'll still be morally bankrupt inside and that will bleed over into all other areas of your life eventually.

Makes Some Sense,

Are you proud of yourself. You are recommending cheating to a impressionable school age kid. How is learning to break the rules in order to get ahead in the short run a good thing for kids to learn.

Kid (OP) don't do it you will regret it. It will be the start of a long downward spiral in your life. Eventaully you'll get caught and it'll ruin your life. It might start with EPO, then lead to cheating in school, stealing ideas at work and cheating on your spouse. One isn't a big a leap from the other and the same justifications can be used for each. But you'll eventually get caught and the ramifications can be very severe and ruin your life.

You'll feel alot better about yourself develop good habits that will enhance your life by working hard, staying clean, play fair and developing a great work ethic.

the cost of your scholarship would be negated by the cost of the EPO. So, why bother.

Only reason to take PEDs is if your ultimate goal is non-running related and you are using running as a means to get to your goal. (btw, a lot of Kenyans want farms and cows...and use running as a means...think about that one).

So, a highschool kid wants to get into say.. Stanford for some advanced degree in hopes of becoming a great engineer or something. He looks at several factors:

1. he has the grades.

2. he doesn't have the money.

3. he's white so he can't pawn a minority scholarship.

4. there are hundreds of 3.5+ GPA candidates vying for xyz scholarship, so too much competition.

So, even with good grades he is not assured of anything. But, then he looks at other ways to get in. Football, soccer, hockey,etc.. all are team sports and your chances of getting a scholarship depends on your HS teams play and how much action you see...so that is not necessarily your best choice... well ok then...he looks at swimming, running, and whatever else individual sport where luck or team work is not really required.

The kid goes and tries out for the xc team, manages to run 16:30 by sophomore year. No way he will be Stanford material anytime soon, so he gives up on that (but read on). He knows if he can dope for 2 years, he could probably scrounge up 1 to 2 minutes seconds with hard work and high mileage and the right amount of EPO. This will then allow him to get some kind of scholarship at a second-class school (running-wise).

He dopes another 1-2 years. Gets excellent grades. Transfers to Stanford (his first choice), quits running and pursues other avenues to his goals. At that point he's prolly be in an internship/work-study program that can help pay his tuition.

he never cared about running, just like most of you don't truly care about your job other than it pays the bills.

Lots of reasons for students to dope. And, don't underestimate a HS kid's motivations. (just think of that movie with Tom Cruise, who is a HS football player, but he tries to get a scholarship to a College, where he can work on his true love...engineering).

Temporary EPO use for the right reasons is ok.

so you get into a good college but never get a job because you are this dumb...

good post, make some sense, I agree with your perspective and speaking from personal experience i was in a similar situation as the OP albeit years ago. I was a very good HS runner who lost his scholarship just a few months before my enrollment to an African who had made the Olympic final. As there was alot of great middle distance runners on the West Coast in the 70's whose best offer was to "split" a scholarship, I was totally screwed. In hindsight though, it was the best thing for me as a runner because i was forced to go to a small college where the Head Coach was an Olympic finalist in my event(i had no idea at the time)

The guy who came from Africa to steal my scholarship got progressively worse as i remember watching him lose even in dual meets to guys i had beaten. I think he left school after a couple of years. This did not sour the coach on going abroad to try to find the"best" athletes available,

but he found out there was no guarantee that he could elevate his program by doing so.

Nowadays i see similarites, Too many coaches are really just recruiters, they look for established talent to save their ass. So guys in HS are going to go to great lengths to grab their attention.

If you want to be competitve through your college career there are not shortcuts,hard work will get you results, drugs are just a short term patch.

A lot of people who read and post on Letsrun complain about the aggressive immaturity here. A lot of posters also ask the question, "are runners specifically immature?" My observation is that runners, and particularly the majority of runners who read these boards, appear to desperately seek clarity and direction for and in their life through running. The organization and thought process which leads to successful running becomes an organizing priciple for their lives. Unfortunately, and this is why so many runners are horribly and specifically immature (my answer to the questions above). It's because the real world is not made up of runners and is not designed by runners. The real world is NOT run by a formula -- wake up early do your morning run, eat well, do your afternoon run, eat well, sleep and repeat -- if you do the hard work and stay healthy and you run well. If you follow the rules of society and work hard you will be rewarded.

The real world does not work this way. People cheat everyday and get ahead. People die everyday who are in the wrong place at the wrong time or who were born in Darfur, Bosnia, Iraq, Chad, Liberia. The point is that runners are immature because they can't deal with the fact that life does not mirror running and now that world class running does not mirror running and is full of people taking shortcuts, many runners can't process the idea that even running makes no sense. Without the black and while of running to guide their lives, they are lost. Their reaction to posts like the young kid here is to attack him as if he has taken the lords name in vain.

Lets face it, to those who have gone over the edge and have begun to sacrifice their own life and sanity to organize their lives so they can run 100+ miles a week or have given up on having a job or a wife or girlfriend so that nothing gets in the way of their running, these people are like religious zealots. They are no more irrational or immature than a Jihadist or terrorist bomber. Their thinking is all-or-nothing which doesn't reflect the way the world works. People who are TRUE BELIEVERS of the WAY OF RUNNING will never accept the fact that people cheat, they cheat everyday, they make a lot of money cheating and they have no problem with cheating, because accepting this drains the preceived purity of the only thing which they have allowed to make any sense in their lives -- running!

This is where the immaturity comes from. Running is simply that, running -- nothing more, nothing less. Cheating in running doesn't mean someone will cheat on their taxes or cheat on their wife/husband. It doesn't mean you are going to go to hell or that you are not capable of amounting to anything in life. It doesn't mean you are going to cheat in school. In fact, I know a lot of great athletes who never cheated in athletics, but cheated all the time in school. What can we make of that? I know of many many many professional athletes who have cheated on their wives and yet, it has had no impact on their ability to legally perform in sports.

The world is a complicated place and it wasn't designed by runners.

Asterixs is that you? Sounds like you anyways.

Still morally bankrupt and trying to spead your venom on everyone lese. How sweet of you.

Do you believe in stealing. That essentially is what cheating in running is. Its stealing, wins, recognition and potentially thousands of dollars in scholarships and awards from others who do follow the rules.

Sugar coat it all you want and blame it on a cold cruel world but the world doesn't determine who you are and what your morals are, you do. You make the decision to cheat, steal or otherwise. Ultimately we are all responsible for ourselves and our own choices regardless of what anyone else in the world does.

I suppose if you had lived in Central Europe in the late 1930's or early 40's you'd have been a Nazi because that was what everyone else was doing, regardless of the wrongness of it.

Your arguement is like being a reed in the wind, blowing which ever way the winds blows at the moment. Just being carried along by currents. What a sad way to go through life.

Keep It Simple Stupid

If something is wrong don't do it.

Cheating is wrong regardless of how many people do it.

Those without a moral compass don't believe in right and wrong and thus try to justify everything they do by saying the world is grey and complicated. Generally those type people aren't very happy and don't have much hope in their life.

Asterix there is still a chance for you to find hope.

so... wrote:

so you get into a good college but never get a job because you are this dumb...

If you go to a good college you will get a good job. That's how it works, like it or not. You can even get bad grades at a good college and then just not put it on your resume and still get hired for a great job based only on the name of the school you went to. I've seen it happen many times.

pogo wrote:

the cost of your scholarship would be negated by the cost of the EPO. So, why bother.

EPO is cheap--a lot cheaper than the cost of my SAT prep course.

I would bet that the stuff that is cheaper than your SAT is not the real McCoy. If ever foolish decide to get yourself into the endless loop of PEDs, make sure of your source. Buying on line is a dangerous business. Imagine if you give into the quick accomplishment, where do you go from there? If you want to continue to have success, you will have to continue spending/using. Why not maximize what you have and take it as far as you can, you can always make the decision about PEDs later. As far as getting into a great college, an undergraduate degree from Stanford in engineering isn't worth a whole lot more than one from any top 20 school. Certainly not worth the price of admission that you are talking - your self respect.

I suppose you constantly think things that you'd never say and holding in these thoughts ends up leaking out onto the internet message boards because you're living in a fantasy world.

Maybe you weren't really directing any of your post at me, but you completely disregarded everything about what the poster was asking and starting planning an elaborate future for him, as if it could go no other way.

Since reading isn't big on this board, I'll itemize the problems:

A) Need a supplier - Can't just pick it up at CVS

B) Cost of Drugs - Sounds like you're already not wealthy, so you need a way to pay for the EPO. It may not be that expensive for a hospital, but any black market item has a significant mark-up, or else it wouldn't be worth the risk. Also have to include syringes and cost of getting to a meeting place.

C) Effects? - Do you know all the potential side effects? Are you ready to deal with the negative consequences? What about the negative consequences of getting caught in an illegal transaction if you're caught?

Are you only going to need to use EPO once? Then it'll lead to awesome workouts and one super race and you'll get into an awesome college because of it...!...DOUBT IT!!!!

D) Mentality Change - Ok, what happens if you get through A, B, and C, you've used EPO, gotten good, but you also like the aspect of shooting and the excitement of entering black market. You feel unstoppable and continue to use. Now, I honestly don't care what you put into your body, but if you're going to keep cheating others in races, it brings up many other ethical questions. If you're willing to go to this extent to cheat, what won't you do? What about stealing? What about murder? Hey if it gives YOU great gains, why not?