I never heard Renato Canova speaking about VO2max sessions

Especially in his Iaaf book about marathon training, the faster pace is 110%of marathon pace. I understand the ideas from a "specific marathon program" point of view, but I thought that 5-3 months before the race, some VO2max sessions would have been useful.

Renato uses training methodology concepts rather than training physiology. What determines the workout pace arent physilogy requirement. All Renato training programme goes related to race pace and race pace percents and not to physiologic parameters or physiologic zones.But of course that the runners they run at 3k pace or whatever ut not with concern if that´s VO2 pace or not.

Frank Horwill claims that the great physiologists daniels and other studied VO2 and found the best way to improve VO2 was to train at 75-100% VO2 which is half marathon to 3K pace. This is why coe ran one 5K paced session (85-90% VO2) every week.

I think it is just the terminology. Taking a look at one of the programs Renato posted for his athletes(Stephen Cherono) a year or so ago and there seems to be about one session per week that is what we(Americans) would normally think of as a "VO2 max session" during racing season.

Examples:

5x 1200(3:08)

7x 1000(2:38)

4x (1000,600,300)

There are also plenty of workouts with hill sprints, 400's, etc.

Examples:

4 x 600m(3 @1:31, 1@ 1:27), 4 x 200m(28,28,28,25), 4 x 500m(1:15,1:15,1:15,1:11), 4 x 300m(45,45,45,41), 4 x 400m(58,58,58,54)

4 sets of 3 x 400m (rec. 1 min between every test - 4 min between sets) improving speed : 62" - 59" - 56

Exactly Mac, it's just terminology. Renato isn't interested in VO2 max testing, probably because he considers it irrelevent to the training. Practising pace it what counts.

King of the VO2 max tests; JD himself, points out that what is really important is running economy, NOT VO2 max.

Thank you guys for your answers. Nevvertheless, I think that VO2max is important and a relevant point to focus on and to improve.

So Greg what would you do if your VO2 max improves but your race times don't?

I know I know what you mean and I agree with you. BTW, I bought his book (Renato's one) and I will follow his instructions to prepare my next Berlin marathon. I agree 100% with his concepts. And during the last Paris marathon, I saw one of his guys (Shami) win so easily that I can just adhere to him.

Where can I buy his book? I've been looking for it.

check out this link :

http://www.iaaf.org/newsfiles/19764.pdf

is there the reference of the book in the list (I can not open it). Otherwise, I think I looked for the order form on Internet.

Yes that is the order form ref DV 50 (page 2). And it will yours soon...good read !

wellnow wrote:

Exactly Mac, it's just terminology.

Wellnow

That’s wrong. That’s not a question of terminology but a question of methodology. That’s not to name differently the same exercise but the opposite. Despite that you may found some pace and design similarity in both VO2 workouts and Renato strength endurance workouts that are different because they based in different the training principles or in different the training concepts if you wish.

Those from VO2 workouts they base it in the concept that if you run close to your max.Vo2 pace you will improve your max.VO2 as well your training economy – to use less oxygen for the same pace – and that will promote an improvement at a large range of distance events.

Renato Canova doesn’t consider the maxVO2 referential as key importance as specific training. Renato methodology bases his training in the assumption that most middle and long distance events that are mainly requires aerobic and enzymatic quality. Then Renato’s specific training uses the extensive process for specific training. That means strength endurance workouts are based from race pace target distance and the training direction goes for the extensive process – to run more distance and at a faster speed.

Quite funny how a few years ago a lot of people they didn’t know who was Renato Canova or his training method, but since they did read a few Renato´s posts in LRC they pass from ignorance to know everything about it. Simply they made wrong statements that we see they still have no knowledge about it and they have noting but ignorance.

i'm not sure i'm reading what you've written here correctly, so let me try to paraphrase and see if it's correct:

just because canova and others end up using paces such as 5k race pace, doesn't mean that they arrive at that pace from the same approach.

so while some coaches assign work bouts that are at 5k pace, because they know this is close to max VO2 pace. while canova has you run 5k pace because he's worried about getting you to run more economical, longer, etc. at that pace if that's what you're training for.

is that correct?

and if so ... do the distance of each work bout simply get longer as the season goes on, but not faster? (you'll have to forgive me, i'm a beginner at canova's methods)

cheers!

So while JD and the physiologists suggest training at a specific target pace for MaxVO2 as well as a lactate threshold pace, Canova suggests a bunch of different paces depending on the distance being trained for. JD would have all of us running 3000m race pace to improve MaxVO2 but Canova changes the training based on event. Am I right in summarizing the differences?

So for a 10,000m runner what types of workouts will improve MaxVO2 and Running Economy? Longer reps (1000m- mile) right at 10km pace, shorter reps (400s-800s) at 5km pace? I'm training for a mid-fall 10km and might change my training from the traditional JD/Pfitzinger/McMillan concepts.

I'm training for a mid-fall 10km and might change my training from the traditional JD/Pfitzinger/McMillan concepts.[/quote]

Good idea. Would a sprinter need to do mile repeats for aerobic power? How about a mararthoner doing 110's for Speed? It should always be based off of the event, much like a 1RM.

Most american coaches focus on training zones. For example train in the VO2 zone to improve VO2 or train in the LT zone to improve LT.

Renato, on the other hand, doesn't use zones but looks at the specific effect of a workout on the individual. He looks at how each workout effects particular variables. For example, he knows that training below, at, and above LT each give different outcomes.

Similarly, to improve LT he knows that a variety of workouts are needed and they will be different for each individual depending on their event and their physiological makeup.

There's more creativity in Renato's program.

Also, note that he Canova doesn't just base things off the event being run. It's more on the individual makeup of the athlete. For example, a marathoner with predominately ST fibers would train different than a marathoner with some FT fibers (like a Geb).

Very true. His training is what is called adaptation-based training theory, similar to Verkhoshasnky's article "end of Peridization." The training is based off of the individual and the competition exercise (event).