I personally don't think double thresholds are worth it if you're not running enough mileage. Coach has added a double threshold session once a block and I've landed at 19 miles for the day, and even those sessions weren't particularly long. If you're not running high enough volume than you'll struggle to recover from the day just from time on feet. That is also assuming that you can be disciplined enough to not empty the tank in workouts.
What does the model look like in the base phase, while building up to the threshold?
I was reading this thread about K. Ingebrigtsen's training, , 3Q + a long run seems to be a bit much at lower mileage (40mpw). Is it needed? Would another easy run work instad? How should the model be adjusted for that mileage?
If you're trying double threshold but not doing the prerequisite strength training, you are missing a fundamental understanding on WHY that training works.
I personally don't think double thresholds are worth it if you're not running enough mileage. Coach has added a double threshold session once a block and I've landed at 19 miles for the day, and even those sessions weren't particularly long. If you're not running high enough volume than you'll struggle to recover from the day just from time on feet. That is also assuming that you can be disciplined enough to not empty the tank in workouts.
For a slower runner like 17 or 18min 5k PR, they would not be hitting that mileage.
The intervals are 30mins of work, yeah? 5x6min or 10x3min. Add in 10min warmup and 10min cooldown. They’re getting in under 5mi from the intervals and a little over 2mi from the warmup and cooldown, so it’s a 7mi session.
That’s still a 14mi day, doing two of those a week would be 28mi, and doing 45min easy (5mi) on the other days of the week (or having one 5mi day with speed work) would bring the mileage up to 28mi + 25mi = 53mi.
Could be good. Imo it would be reasonable to take 1-2 days off to bring the mileage down to 48mi or 43mi until the body gets used to processing those 14mi days. And then mileage can slowly build by having no off days, increasing some easy days beyond 45min, increasing warmup and cooldown, and simply getting faster so that more miles are done in the same amount of time.
I personally don't think double thresholds are worth it if you're not running enough mileage. Coach has added a double threshold session once a block and I've landed at 19 miles for the day, and even those sessions weren't particularly long. If you're not running high enough volume than you'll struggle to recover from the day just from time on feet. That is also assuming that you can be disciplined enough to not empty the tank in workouts.
For a slower runner like 17 or 18min 5k PR, they would not be hitting that mileage.
The intervals are 30mins of work, yeah? 5x6min or 10x3min. Add in 10min warmup and 10min cooldown. They’re getting in under 5mi from the intervals and a little over 2mi from the warmup and cooldown, so it’s a 7mi session.
That’s still a 14mi day, doing two of those a week would be 28mi, and doing 45min easy (5mi) on the other days of the week (or having one 5mi day with speed work) would bring the mileage up to 28mi + 25mi = 53mi.
Could be good. Imo it would be reasonable to take 1-2 days off to bring the mileage down to 48mi or 43mi until the body gets used to processing those 14mi days. And then mileage can slowly build by having no off days, increasing some easy days beyond 45min, increasing warmup and cooldown, and simply getting faster so that more miles are done in the same amount of time.
If your way of modifying the Norwegian system is just to run the reps slower, it’s not the system anymore.
A lot of nonsense posted in this thread. Normal lets run sadly.
For what it's worth the guy posting about the hobby jogger Norwegian brother and making that the single version of the system is spot on. Would like to hear some more about session you do etc
For a slower runner like 17 or 18min 5k PR, they would not be hitting that mileage.
The intervals are 30mins of work, yeah? 5x6min or 10x3min. Add in 10min warmup and 10min cooldown. They’re getting in under 5mi from the intervals and a little over 2mi from the warmup and cooldown, so it’s a 7mi session.
That’s still a 14mi day, doing two of those a week would be 28mi, and doing 45min easy (5mi) on the other days of the week (or having one 5mi day with speed work) would bring the mileage up to 28mi + 25mi = 53mi.
Could be good. Imo it would be reasonable to take 1-2 days off to bring the mileage down to 48mi or 43mi until the body gets used to processing those 14mi days. And then mileage can slowly build by having no off days, increasing some easy days beyond 45min, increasing warmup and cooldown, and simply getting faster so that more miles are done in the same amount of time.
If your way of modifying the Norwegian system is just to run the reps slower, it’s not the system anymore.
It's running the reps at the same intensity, for the same physiological effect. The amount of mileage being covered is different because the workout is by time, so a slower runner's mileage is lower. A slow runner is doing ~4.5mi in a 30min threshold workout and an elite is doing ~6.5mi. So that's a 2mi difference right there. And then shortening both the warmup and the cooldown makes a big difference too.
A 17 min 5k runner could still hit the mileage with longer warmups and cooldowns and still getting each threshold session with about 20 minutes or less of work for each session.
So do u mean you adjust the pace? I just can't believe you would run just at LT pace. Doesn't make sense. U would need to run at different places for different adaptations.
I am curious though, that's a huge jump in improvement after stagnation.
One thing I always been curious about also is that is all ctl or training load equal. Are you from cycling background? They use ctl all the time.
Yes I used to cycle. I experimented training in a lot of different ways. What I found out (I used to time trial) is that whatever CTL I got to that I could maximally sustain, my power was the same over 10 or 25 miles (key distances for time Trialists). To pluck an arbitratory number at random , say my 20 min power was 340w at a CTL of 60, it didn't really matter HOW I got there. In the sense I could do that power on a range of 7 or 12 hours a week training. The 7 hours may have been sub threshold sweetspot every other day, or the 12 hours may have been lots of slow riding and some vo2 max stuff in a week. I tried 4-5 different ways to get to that CTL number. Each time my power was almost the same.
Applying this to running, I have about 7 hours a week to train. So running as much sub threshold as I can, which gives a very good CTL score compared to say running 6 days, with long run, hills and a workout, means I'm creating more CTL for the same amount of time running the "hobby jogger" Norway model. This I think is the reason my times have improved, despite now not doing any proper REALLY hard stuff. I hope this makes sense? It's effectively a running version of what is very popular in cycling, "sweetspot" training.
In terms of running just at LT pace, of course not. You adjust the pace depending on the length of the reps + rest.
So for example 25x400 would be a faster pace, than the other end of the scale , 5x2k. But ultimately you are reaching the same state of sub threshold, just under. Remember threshold is a state, not a pace. That's why it's important to play around (if you can) with a lactate meter first, to get an idea and try to marry it up to the more traditional data you can get after each run. Ideally you would have a lactate meter all the time, but for hobby joggers like me, after a month or so you can probably get to 98% of where you need to be without it. For a pro, that 2% difference is a concern. But for me, I'm OK with that 😀
I would also just like to say, thanks for the top posts. As others have said, let's run probably isn't the place for it. It's just not how running as been done before, so people don't get it. But cylcing got it wrong for the majority of the time the sport existed and in the last decade took a huge leap forward and the coaches died off or had to adapt. Could you give an idea of the different types of reps done? Do you do any vo2 max stuff? How easy is the easy running? Do you run everyday? Can I ask what your training score /ctl is? As Ive been using it a lot in training peaks. Im also coming around to the idea that you should push the threshold stuff as far as you can whilst keeping fresh. Not even just the Norwegian elites, but so many fast amateurs I follow on Strava are clearly doing this type of training and also seen to have made huge jumps. As I said, letsrun most people won't get it don't want to.
My CTL hovers around the 58-62 range. Although that number is kind of arbitratory in the sense it's only really relevant to me and how I've defined by pace , to set the training loads. If you do it by HR, it could be different etc. But as I said before, relative to me and how I collect data, I was about the same pbs for a while around the same CTL range. Which was about 50-52. That was on 6.5-7 hours a week.
But now, training using the hobby jogger Norway method, I can reach that higher CTL, for the same time training. Everything I've played around with in both sports, suggests all CTL is created roughly equal. So in that sense, I could go back to running more of a classic running approach, ditch the Norway model , get a CTL of say 60 - and be around the same for 5k I am now. The problem being, it would take me more than 7 hours to get there. Maybe 9. I can't quite squeeze that in. So for the hobby jogger with a life outside of running, the Norwegian model probably gives you the best bang for your buck, even outside of doing doubles. Which I suspect is what Kristoffer, the oldest Ingebrigtsten brother, is doing.
In terms of sessions. Again, it's pretty simple. 3 easy runs a week. All under 70% of max HR which is usually about 65% of MAS for those who work in paces as well. This will keep you definitely under LT1. Long run, I tend to just keep the same and by the end I'll be almost at the upper limit of that 70% which is the goal. I think the recent studies which was excellent, on the training characteristics of long distance elite runners (2022) had easy characterised as under 70% Max HR. That seems slow. It is slow. Very slow.
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k. 25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV. 10x1k is around 12-15k pace. 5x2k is around HM pace. 6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.
I run everyday, so it's 3x easy, 1x long at the higher end of the easy boundary and 3x of the above sessions. The only fast stuff I do is are the parkruns. I've gradually improved after a huge stagnation last year and the summer before. Keep chipping time off my 5k pb each month and have for about the last 9 months now. It was around the same for ages. It's not a quick fix, but over time if you stick to it I think most people will improve and I also have felt fresher than I ever have. Also less niggles, I equate that to not doing the really hard and past paces anymore.
I try to stick to that to be honest. It keeps it simple and mixes up what the body is running at. The key to this though, is all short rest. 60 seconds for everything but the 400s at 30. But having had the lactate meter for a while, it will all be around 2.5-3.5 mmol. Again, I no longer test. But I tested enough for a good month or so to know it's good enough for me. But I'm a 17 min guy. If I was Jacob, id care enough to do it every session. As I said before, I think I'm within the margin of error (as my paces I've specifically set on the safer side rather than pushing it.
I did the first 7-8 weeks or so of my summer training using the daniels running formula Phase 1 and some of Phase 2, would switching to the tinman model be advisable? What are the similarities/differences between the two? thanks!
Generally, I think that you should stick to a plan. If the JD plan is working for you so far, follow through.
My CTL hovers around the 58-62 range. Although that number is kind of arbitratory in the sense it's only really relevant to me and how I've defined by pace , to set the training loads. If you do it by HR, it could be different etc. But as I said before, relative to me and how I collect data, I was about the same pbs for a while around the same CTL range. Which was about 50-52. That was on 6.5-7 hours a week.
But now, training using the hobby jogger Norway method, I can reach that higher CTL, for the same time training. Everything I've played around with in both sports, suggests all CTL is created roughly equal. So in that sense, I could go back to running more of a classic running approach, ditch the Norway model , get a CTL of say 60 - and be around the same for 5k I am now. The problem being, it would take me more than 7 hours to get there. Maybe 9. I can't quite squeeze that in. So for the hobby jogger with a life outside of running, the Norwegian model probably gives you the best bang for your buck, even outside of doing doubles. Which I suspect is what Kristoffer, the oldest Ingebrigtsten brother, is doing.
In terms of sessions. Again, it's pretty simple. 3 easy runs a week. All under 70% of max HR which is usually about 65% of MAS for those who work in paces as well. This will keep you definitely under LT1. Long run, I tend to just keep the same and by the end I'll be almost at the upper limit of that 70% which is the goal. I think the recent studies which was excellent, on the training characteristics of long distance elite runners (2022) had easy characterised as under 70% Max HR. That seems slow. It is slow. Very slow.
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k. 25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV. 10x1k is around 12-15k pace. 5x2k is around HM pace. 6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.
I run everyday, so it's 3x easy, 1x long at the higher end of the easy boundary and 3x of the above sessions. The only fast stuff I do is are the parkruns. I've gradually improved after a huge stagnation last year and the summer before. Keep chipping time off my 5k pb each month and have for about the last 9 months now. It was around the same for ages. It's not a quick fix, but over time if you stick to it I think most people will improve and I also have felt fresher than I ever have. Also less niggles, I equate that to not doing the really hard and past paces anymore.
I try to stick to that to be honest. It keeps it simple and mixes up what the body is running at. The key to this though, is all short rest. 60 seconds for everything but the 400s at 30. But having had the lactate meter for a while, it will all be around 2.5-3.5 mmol. Again, I no longer test. But I tested enough for a good month or so to know it's good enough for me. But I'm a 17 min guy. If I was Jacob, id care enough to do it every session. As I said before, I think I'm within the margin of error (as my paces I've specifically set on the safer side rather than pushing it.
I think you are really disciplined to stay at those paces if that is how you measure without the meter. As I think most people would blow the workout and go too fast. That is why I think most ppl cant train like this as they push it too hard and have no discipline.
It's quite tinman like in that it probably doesn't feel hard and u have to believe in the process. I think 9/10 runners will feel good so "push " it that little bit too much. I looked up the brother u mentioned. He is crazy discipline. I assume u the same? U don't think ok today I'm feeling great? Let's push it?
I think you are really disciplined to stay at those paces if that is how you measure without the meter. As I think most people would blow the workout and go too fast. That is why I think most ppl cant train like this as they push it too hard and have no discipline.
It's quite tinman like in that it probably doesn't feel hard and u have to believe in the process. I think 9/10 runners will feel good so "push " it that little bit too much. I looked up the brother u mentioned. He is crazy discipline. I assume u the same? U don't think ok today I'm feeling great? Let's push it?
I stick to the paces, no matter what I feel. Cycling helped in the fact that no matter how you feel, you can probably do the workout. It's a shame power isn't a real option for running. The stryd is pretty laughable and the wrist based power on the Garmin is even worse. Until something better comes along, pace seemed to be the best metric that matched up with what the lactate meter was reading. Obviously if you live in the hills, this is gonna suck for you. But there's always the track. I'm lucky, I live by the sea and can do pan flat loops. So pace is very easy to stick to.
I get what you mean about pushing it. I have a friend who is much more genetically gifted than me and started training like this and made some gains. But then he was sending me messages like "felt good on the easy run so pushed it 15-20 seconds per /km faster". Or "was feeling so strong! So I did the 10x1k at 8-10k pace!". This is where it starts to fall down. Obviously at the time it doesn't feel like much, but over time it adds up and you do that every other run and it's no longer sustainable. Then he's like I'm ruined, I can't handle this! Forgetting he was going way too hard.
It works, because it creates what I think is the maximum training load, that minimises the risk of getting injured whilst still stimulating Threshold and vo2 max to an extent, by pushing it up from below.
I definitely think it's a confidence thing. I think if you are coming from cycling or rowing , it's probably way easier to have the confidence to try this - as it's just not as alien. I think runners panic and see "why are the easy runs so easy!!" "No vo2 max stuff?! What a joke!!" Or similar.
The icing on the cake for Jacob , that extra 2% I mentioned might be the hills. The stuff that pushes that lactate up above 8mmol and above. But for me, for the hobby jobber Kristoffer, just sticking to 3x easy, 3x threshold and a long run will get you very very close to your max potential, with relatively low injury risk and the extra bit of training load overall that will make the difference for your average, time crunched, hobby jogger.
If typical double threshold training has an AM and PM session Tu and Th, for those with lower mileage, why not do threshold sessions Monday PM, Tuesday AM, Wednesday PM and Thursday AM so you still get that 12 hour turnaround in between workouts. Would that be a way to do it on lower mileage?
If typical double threshold training has an AM and PM session Tu and Th, for those with lower mileage, why not do threshold sessions Monday PM, Tuesday AM, Wednesday PM and Thursday AM so you still get that 12 hour turnaround in between workouts. Would that be a way to do it on lower mileage?
Yeah good luck with that champ. U will get injured very fast. This thread is good, let's not confuse it. If I do singles the guy in here who has done the long posts has laid it out the best. If Jacobs fat brother is doing it then it prob is likely the best way for all you slow guys out there to maximise Ur slow hobby jogger ways. Lave the doubles for us real men
Great post -- that is exactly how it should be done. That's great that you put the pace scaling for the rep length, i think that makes this post very easy to digest.
The 400s are great when you want the speed and the 2ks are great when you want the extra strength if you want to make considerations for periodizing the singles.
Singles definitely should be observed on lower mileage for sure. I cant think of a way you'd really want to integrate a "double" unless you want to add another easy day, so just robbing peter to pay paul in this system.
My CTL hovers around the 58-62 range. Although that number is kind of arbitratory in the sense it's only really relevant to me and how I've defined by pace , to set the training loads. If you do it by HR, it could be different etc. But as I said before, relative to me and how I collect data, I was about the same pbs for a while around the same CTL range. Which was about 50-52. That was on 6.5-7 hours a week.
But now, training using the hobby jogger Norway method, I can reach that higher CTL, for the same time training. Everything I've played around with in both sports, suggests all CTL is created roughly equal. So in that sense, I could go back to running more of a classic running approach, ditch the Norway model , get a CTL of say 60 - and be around the same for 5k I am now. The problem being, it would take me more than 7 hours to get there. Maybe 9. I can't quite squeeze that in. So for the hobby jogger with a life outside of running, the Norwegian model probably gives you the best bang for your buck, even outside of doing doubles. Which I suspect is what Kristoffer, the oldest Ingebrigtsten brother, is doing.
In terms of sessions. Again, it's pretty simple. 3 easy runs a week. All under 70% of max HR which is usually about 65% of MAS for those who work in paces as well. This will keep you definitely under LT1. Long run, I tend to just keep the same and by the end I'll be almost at the upper limit of that 70% which is the goal. I think the recent studies which was excellent, on the training characteristics of long distance elite runners (2022) had easy characterised as under 70% Max HR. That seems slow. It is slow. Very slow.
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k. 25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV. 10x1k is around 12-15k pace. 5x2k is around HM pace. 6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.
I run everyday, so it's 3x easy, 1x long at the higher end of the easy boundary and 3x of the above sessions. The only fast stuff I do is are the parkruns. I've gradually improved after a huge stagnation last year and the summer before. Keep chipping time off my 5k pb each month and have for about the last 9 months now. It was around the same for ages. It's not a quick fix, but over time if you stick to it I think most people will improve and I also have felt fresher than I ever have. Also less niggles, I equate that to not doing the really hard and past paces anymore.
I try to stick to that to be honest. It keeps it simple and mixes up what the body is running at. The key to this though, is all short rest. 60 seconds for everything but the 400s at 30. But having had the lactate meter for a while, it will all be around 2.5-3.5 mmol. Again, I no longer test. But I tested enough for a good month or so to know it's good enough for me. But I'm a 17 min guy. If I was Jacob, id care enough to do it every session. As I said before, I think I'm within the margin of error (as my paces I've specifically set on the safer side rather than pushing it.
Awesome thread, thanks for the in depth info about your training! One question I haven’t seen answered about the Norwegian system - is the rest period standing? Walking? Jogging? Does it even matter that much with only 30-60 seconds of rest?
My CTL hovers around the 58-62 range. Although that number is kind of arbitratory in the sense it's only really relevant to me and how I've defined by pace , to set the training loads. If you do it by HR, it could be different etc. But as I said before, relative to me and how I collect data, I was about the same pbs for a while around the same CTL range. Which was about 50-52. That was on 6.5-7 hours a week.
But now, training using the hobby jogger Norway method, I can reach that higher CTL, for the same time training. Everything I've played around with in both sports, suggests all CTL is created roughly equal. So in that sense, I could go back to running more of a classic running approach, ditch the Norway model , get a CTL of say 60 - and be around the same for 5k I am now. The problem being, it would take me more than 7 hours to get there. Maybe 9. I can't quite squeeze that in. So for the hobby jogger with a life outside of running, the Norwegian model probably gives you the best bang for your buck, even outside of doing doubles. Which I suspect is what Kristoffer, the oldest Ingebrigtsten brother, is doing.
In terms of sessions. Again, it's pretty simple. 3 easy runs a week. All under 70% of max HR which is usually about 65% of MAS for those who work in paces as well. This will keep you definitely under LT1. Long run, I tend to just keep the same and by the end I'll be almost at the upper limit of that 70% which is the goal. I think the recent studies which was excellent, on the training characteristics of long distance elite runners (2022) had easy characterised as under 70% Max HR. That seems slow. It is slow. Very slow.
The rest of the sessions are anything from 25x400 to 3x3k. 25x400 is probably around 98-99% of Tinman's CV. 10x1k is around 12-15k pace. 5x2k is around HM pace. 6x1600 right around 10 mile pace.
I run everyday, so it's 3x easy, 1x long at the higher end of the easy boundary and 3x of the above sessions. The only fast stuff I do is are the parkruns. I've gradually improved after a huge stagnation last year and the summer before. Keep chipping time off my 5k pb each month and have for about the last 9 months now. It was around the same for ages. It's not a quick fix, but over time if you stick to it I think most people will improve and I also have felt fresher than I ever have. Also less niggles, I equate that to not doing the really hard and past paces anymore.
I try to stick to that to be honest. It keeps it simple and mixes up what the body is running at. The key to this though, is all short rest. 60 seconds for everything but the 400s at 30. But having had the lactate meter for a while, it will all be around 2.5-3.5 mmol. Again, I no longer test. But I tested enough for a good month or so to know it's good enough for me. But I'm a 17 min guy. If I was Jacob, id care enough to do it every session. As I said before, I think I'm within the margin of error (as my paces I've specifically set on the safer side rather than pushing it.
Awesome thread, thanks for the in depth info about your training! One question I haven’t seen answered about the Norwegian system - is the rest period standing? Walking? Jogging? Does it even matter that much with only 30-60 seconds of rest?
30s standing after 400s, all the rest can be mixed. 1:00 is not much time whether you are jogging or standing and wont make a huge difference one way or the other.
One other note to make if you are using lactate in a more modified system of singles: You may want to use the lactate to insure you are getting maximal effects from the session rather than thinking of it from a pure intensity control POV. Say if you were doing doubles, you'd want to be pretty tight on the numbers being at or under sessions, but if you were only doing one a day three times a week, you might want to use the lactate to adjust intensity upwards more than you would in a double threshold model.
Say creating some guide posts for yourself in a 10x1k workout at halfway: at your 5th K if you are over/under 3.0 mmol, to maintain or to speed up, meter dependent of course. Point being, if you in the singles camp, you really might went to press/chase the adaptations on a given day if youre feeling good by always trying to be "on" threshold rather than slightly under.
Ok, let's do a little rewind. The purpose of the "Norwegian system" is basically to maximize long-term fitness growth, which is some product of duration, intensity, and repeatability in training (over the course of weeks, months, years). While faster-paced, higher-intensity reps and workouts might produce more fitness growth on a per-mile basis, the "Norwegian system" basically prioritizes paces around LT because, when the intensity is properly controlled, an athlete can do "a lot" more of it in one day than higher intensities, and these paces are extremely unlikely to burn an athlete out, so they can do these sorts of days/sessions for the majority of the year, for many years.
Notice that one of the keys to the LT work is to be able to do "a lot" of it! To institute it on lower mileage would really be a matter of figuring out how much LT work you could handle in a way that was very repeatable. Start small, control the intensity, and add volume incrementally.
However, before you start (especially with double-thresholds), I would strongly recommend the following:
1. Be accustomed to doubling (even if you have to start with 2 x 20 min runs, get used to running twice a day on at least some days)
2. Be strong muscularly (weight/resistance training!)
3. Be as mechanically sound as is reasonably possible (drills, active stretching/activation work)