My daughter is competing against two boys this weekend in California 1600 State Championships

Wise Old Man wrote:

RunRagged wrote:

1) If any kids were subjecting to bullying and cruelty, sure I'll denounce it.

I'll also point out that part of the blame for any bullying and cruelty that went on in this case has to go to you and the others who've been pushing policies and practices that are clearly unfair to girls and women - and then slagging off everyone and anyone who raises objections or dares to push back and say "this isn't fair" as mean-spirited, heartless bigots, haters, right wingers, Nazis, imbeciles and so on.

2) I consider myself a "trans inclusive feminist" because my advocacy for, and concern about, female people includes those who have trans, non-binary and other gender identities that put them under the "trans umbrella." The only people excuded from my feminism are males, because feminism is about promoting the rights and interests of female people.

BTW, all males are excluded from my feminism, even those I love including the one I gave birth to, breastfed, toilet trained, taught to drive, nursed through many illnesses, educated, put through college, etc who literally came from my flesh and blood. I don't selectively exclude males identify as trans from feminism - I exclude 'em all.

I don't believe that the people you speak of who hold your views are "trans inclusive feminists." Yes, I think they are misogynists. Women and girls can be misogynists just like "liberal" men can be.

In my opinion, their and your kind of analysis and views aren't feminism - they're genderism, elitism, authoritarianism, male supremacy and silencing of dissent. They/you believe in favoritism for a group of males they/you see as members of a sacred caste and think deserve special treatment - special treatment no other males get, and special treatemnt that comes at the expense of female people.

If your daughter(s), their friends and the women in your life really are so keen to compete in sports against members of the male sex and to share locker rooms, showers, changing rooms, hospital rooms bunk houses, dorm rooms, rape refuges, prison cells etc with every Tom, Dick and Harry who claims to "identify as a girl or woman, I have no problem with them campaigning for the creation of additional mixed-sex sports and spaces.

My problem is with them and you insisting that all girls and all women (the female kind) must give up our hard-won right to female-only sports and spaces because that's what personally suits them, or that's what they say suits them at the present moment - and because it's what you as a man who believes he is wise has decided is best.

1) There was no IF (did you read what Max Englehart said), so why don’t you simply denounce it. People on this thread follow your lead and they think how this all went down was positive.

2) So in summary, you believe that women like Kimberle Crenshaw and Barbara Smith “aren't (about) feminism - they're (about) genderism, elitism, authoritarianism, male supremacy and silencing of dissent.”

That seems way off the mark, comically so.

RunRagged wrote:

translucent wrote:

Are you going to show the studies you think prove this? Because I know at least one study that anti-trans types like yourself love to use to claim it, but that shows nothing of the sort.

In case you don't and others don't want to read the study I linked to, here's a summary:

Adolescents who identify as transgender are vulnerable to suicidal thoughts and self-harming behaviors. This fact, frequently reported by the news media, is often used as the justification for the rapid provision of "gender-affirming" hormonal and surgical interventions to gender-dysphoric adolescents: “Fifty percent of transgender youth attempt suicide before they are at age 21,” declared the mother of Jazz Jennings, the most famous transgender youth in the English-speaking world.

[But] a closer examination of the risk of suicide among [trans-identifed youth] reveals a more complex picture.

First off, there are wide variations by country, which remain poorly understood. For example, gender-dysphoric youth in The Netherlands attempt suicide at about 1/3 the rate of the UK's gender-dysphoric youth.

Secondly, the estimates collected online from youth themselves tend to be higher than those obtained from more reliable clinic samples. And importantly, the data on suicidal thoughts and behaviors typically does not capture completed suicides, which represents a significant knowledge gap.

A recent study by Dr. Michael Biggs [professor of sociology at Oxford University] fills this gap by calculating the rate of completed suicides among UK's gender-dysphoric youth.

The new study by Dr. Biggs uses the data from the world's largest pediatric gender clinic, the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS), to estimate the rates of completed suicides among trans-identifying youth.

The United Kingdom has a comprehensive surveillance system for every death classified as suicide or probable suicide and such deaths by patients—even of those on the waiting list—must be reported.

In the eleven years from 2010 to 2020, four patients under the care of the GIDS committed suicide, equating to 0.03% of the total. This translates into an annualized suicide rate of 13 per 100,000.

For the general population of comparable age (14 to 17 years), the rate was 2.7 per 100,000. Thus, adolescents referred to the GIDS had a significantly higher rate of suicide, 5.5 times greater after adjusting for the clinic’s sex ratio.

However, this greater risk is not necessarily attributable to transgender identity.

Adolescents referred to the GIDS differ in many other ways from their peers of the same age: they are more likely to suffer from depression and to be on the autism spectrum, for example. These conditions increase the risk of suicide.

Another recent study revealed that while trans-identifying adolescents' suicidality (including thoughts and behaviors, but excluding completed suicides) is markedly higher than that found in the general population of youth, it is only somewhat higher than in youth referred to mental health services for non-gender-related concerns.

Much of the knowledge of suicidality in transgender-identifying youth comes from self-reported online surveys. However, survey data cannot be taken at face value. As demonstrated by prior research on the general public and of non-heterosexual youth in particular, when respondents who affirmatively answer a question on attempted suicide are asked follow-up questions, it turns out that many had not taken life-threatening actions.

Moreover, “sexual-minority youths appear more inclined than other adolescents to reply in the affirmative when simplistic suicide attempt research instruments are used” (Savin-Williams, 2001). A recently published article likewise suggests that lesbian, bisexual, and gay youth might be “normalizing suicidality as a way to express distress and cope with life problems” (Canetto et al. 2021).

Link:segm.org/trans_youth_suicide_study

RunRagged wrote:

translucent wrote:

Are you going to show the studies you think prove this? Because I know at least one study that anti-trans types like yourself love to use to claim it, but that shows nothing of the sort.

Sure I'll show studies if you want. Here's one:

Link:link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s105...

As to you calling me an "anti-trans type" - I'm a pluralist who believes people of all kinds, walks of life, identities etc should be treated fairly and decently. I want everyone - even those very different to me and whose views I strongly disagree with - to be able to exercise their right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in safety and security without unjust discrimination, bullying, cruelty or any kind of mistreatment.

But my focus in convos about "trans" and the gender identity movement in general is finding ways for society to be fair to, and accepting of, all whilst not compromising or rolling back the hard-won rights of women and girls (the female kind) that generations of women had to fight tooth and nail for; keeping in place and strengthening protective measures that provide safeguarding for children, girls and women, and other vulnerable people; advancing LGB rights and acceptance; not compromisng anyone's free speech rights; and not being bullied or browbeaten into going along with the unscientific, reality-denying, sexist and misogynistic dogma the gender identity movement is built on and peddles.

BTW, I probably personally know or have known more people who identify as trans, or did in the past, than anyone else on this thread. Which is why I know there is no unanimity amongst them on this and other issues, just as there is diversity of thought amongst "the LGB," Democratic Party voters, Labour (UK) members, lefties, liberals and so on.

RunRagged wrote:

Wise Old Man wrote:

1) There was no IF (did you read what Max Englehart said), so why don’t you simply denounce it. People on this thread follow your lead and they think how this all went down was positive.

2) So in summary, you believe that women like Kimberle Crenshaw and Barbara Smith “aren't (about) feminism - they're (about) genderism, elitism, authoritarianism, male supremacy and silencing of dissent.”

That seems way off the mark, comically so.

Oh c'mon, you can't be serious. No one follows my lead on this thread or on any other. People on LRC as in other settings can and do think for themselves.

BTW, the term "intersectional feminism" as coined and orginally set for and explained by Crenshaw had/has to do with the way race and sex are two of the most prominent "axes of oppression" and discrimination that intersect and reinforce one another to make life especially difficult for black women in the US context (and later in a broader context). It originally had nothing at all to do with transgenderism, gender identity ideology, including males in female sports and spaces, or redefining feminism so that it's "inclusive" of males.

Barbara Smith's feminism was/is about how sexism, racism, homophobia , heteronormativity - and other factors known as axes of oppression - intersect, reinforce one another and lend one another strength much like strands and plaits of hair do when they are braided together; like threads and strips of fibre do when they are woven together to make sturdy cloth or rope; or like strands of copper wire when they are wound together to make cords for conducting electrical power and telecommunication signals.

The term "intersectional feminism" has now come to mean a bastardized, bowlderized, eviscerated, hollowed-out, upside down, contradictory, muddled and illogical viewpoint that is basically the opposite of genuine feminism.

Today's "intersectional feminism" not only includes males, it centers them and promotes male interests, male supremacy and the regressive sexism and sex stereotypes that are the heart and foundation of transgednerism and gender identity ideology.

This state of affairs came about because gender ideologues and trans activists stole the term "intersectional feminism," appropriated it for themselves, claimed sole ownership of it, and gave it a whole new meaning entirely of their own making that has turned the term into a buzzword that's empty of coherent meaning. Just like they've done, or tried to do, with "woman," "girl," "lesbian," "vagina," "vulva," "mother" and many other words.

None of this changes the fact that the policies and practices you are promoting are unfair to girls and women, whom you think should be forced to give up hard-won rights to accommodate males you believe are "the most vulnerable and oppressed" people in our society and you've decided deserve special treament at the epxense of females.

You can keep insisting that because a lot of other people including many women - and all the powers-that-be in California - are on board with telling girls and women to budge up and make room for boys and men in our sports and spaces, tough shxt about your rights, then that means it can't be unfair and wrong. But that's just your view. And since you never make any arguments explaining and establishing the merits of your view, you're not gonna convince anyone of its rectitude.