Frank Shorter is the greatest US distance runner ever.
Galen Rupp is second.
Grant Fisher will never get to a World podium.
Shorter is the MOST IMPORTANT distance runner in US history, but he’s far from the greatest. You simply can’t have a 5000 pr of 13:26 and 10000 pr of 27:45 and be the goat.
Frank Shorter is the greatest US distance runner ever.
Galen Rupp is second.
Grant Fisher will never get to a World podium.
Shorter is the MOST IMPORTANT distance runner in US history, but he’s far from the greatest. You simply can’t have a 5000 pr of 13:26 and 10000 pr of 27:45 and be the goat.
He made up for those lackluster times by today's standards (although they were very good back then) by winning the Gold in Munich and the Silver in Montreal in the marathon. When it comes to the Olympic marathon he is definitely the greatest in US marathoning. Probably would have had the Gold in Montreal but the East German was able to evade he drug testing at the time.
He made up for those lackluster times by today's standards (although they were very good back then) by winning the Gold in Munich and the Silver in Montreal in the marathon. When it comes to the Olympic marathon he is definitely the greatest in US marathoning. Probably would have had the Gold in Montreal but the East German was able to evade he drug testing at the time.
Yes, very hard to evaluate across eras. So much has changed in terms of strength of competition, technology, training, professionalism and as always, people just get faster. What’s clear is that Shorter winning in Munich was the greatest moment is US distance running history. (I’m considering Ryun’s exploits limited to middle distance). This was a major cultural moment that was instrumental in popularizing distance running as an activity in the country. Everybody knew Shorter and was aware of this win. By comparison greats like Lagat and Rupp have toiled away in obscurity. At the same time, when you think of greatness in terms of talent/pure ability, it’s really hard to argue that Shorter is remotely close to Lagat or Rupp. In every way other than Olympic gold, they far outperform Shorter. Honestly, I don’t think there’s a distance from 1500 through the marathon that peak Rupp would not beat peak Shorter even with the same shoes on their feet, and yes, even the marathon.
He made up for those lackluster times by today's standards (although they were very good back then) by winning the Gold in Munich and the Silver in Montreal in the marathon. When it comes to the Olympic marathon he is definitely the greatest in US marathoning. Probably would have had the Gold in Montreal but the East German was able to evade he drug testing at the time.
Yes, very hard to evaluate across eras. So much has changed in terms of strength of competition, technology, training, professionalism and as always, people just get faster. What’s clear is that Shorter winning in Munich was the greatest moment is US distance running history. (I’m considering Ryun’s exploits limited to middle distance). This was a major cultural moment that was instrumental in popularizing distance running as an activity in the country. Everybody knew Shorter and was aware of this win. By comparison greats like Lagat and Rupp have toiled away in obscurity. At the same time, when you think of greatness in terms of talent/pure ability, it’s really hard to argue that Shorter is remotely close to Lagat or Rupp. In every way other than Olympic gold, they far outperform Shorter. Honestly, I don’t think there’s a distance from 1500 through the marathon that peak Rupp would not beat peak Shorter even with the same shoes on their feet, and yes, even the marathon.
Fisher isn't even the best American on his team. Jager is WAY ahead of him with an Olympic Silver and WC bronze, to go along with 7 USA titles.
Totally agree. However Lagat doesn’t count, hate to say it but by that logic shoukd Chelimo not count as well? I def think lagat shouldn’t count but it begs a question of Chelimo.
Probably would have had the Gold in Montreal but the East German was able to evade he drug testing at the time.
And so was Frank. Everyone was able to dodge testing or beat the tests. Level playing field. Waldi won fair and square. Both were playing under the same set of rules. Shorter lost. Period.
I can agree with your statement about combining times with medals.
Give him time. He is the brightest star to come along in a while.
How many US records do you think Fisher will have? He already has 3. My guess is 6 on the track (indoor and outdoor) and 3 more on the roads.
Idk how many meaningful records (half and full) grant will have on the road. If I’m him I don’t see a reason to move to the roads for a long time if ever. Even if he does I feel like Mantz may already have them and defeat speed demons like fisher on the roads
Totally agree. However Lagat doesn’t count, hate to say it but by that logic shoukd Chelimo not count as well? I def think lagat shouldn’t count but it begs a question of Chelimo.
Are you discounting Lagat and Chelimo for being born abroad?
You do realize that Shorter & Salazar were also born abroad, right?
And , among others, both Khannouchi and Meb have had more global success than him.
Gotta say meb is tough as nails. That Athens course was an abusive SOB. Multiple times in his career he was knocked down and he kept coming back. Worked hard. Achieved greatness. The guy heel striked his way through Massachusetts to a PR and a win at a time when America needed it most. The guy is a legend. Idk if he’s the greatest but he did great things. 5’5” with quads from someone who’s 6’2”. Incredible runner. Top 5? Top 3? Grant isn’t in the conversation and has to maintain top level for at least 5 more years before we even CONSIDER if he should be on the short list.
To be considered the best you have to be rated against the competition you faced in your era. An athlete doesn't run against those who preceded them or who come after. The test is what did they win and who did they beat and did they dominate their era. On that basis Fisher simply isn't in contention (and neither is Rupp).
It should be emphasized more that Fisher is still only 25, with a spring birthday. All of the modern day American greats who have been named in this thread had their greatest international championship success at ~26 or older:
Rupp - won first Olympic medal at 26
Lagat - didn't become American until he was 29
Chelimo - won first Olympic medal two months shy of 26
Meb - won Olympic medal at 29
Jager - won Olympic medal at 27
Centro - won Olympic gold at 26 (two months shy of 27)
Impossible to say at this point if Fisher will wind up as the American distance GOAT, but his career is off to a great start. Based on their events, he is most comparable to Rupp, and his career up to age 25 stacks up very favorably to Rupp at the same age (and both have spring birthdays, which makes for a fair comparison):
Rupp at age 25: 3 national championships, 13th at Olympics, 7th and 8th at Worlds, PRs of 3:39.14, 7:42.40, 13:06.86, and 26:48.00
Fisher today: 1 national championship, 5th and 9th at Olympics, 4th and 6th at Worlds, PRs of 3:35.53, 7:28.48, 12:53.73, and 26:33.84
Wouldn't it be more relevant to your point to say Lagat won his first Olympic medal (bronze) at about age 26, and set the still-standing national Kenyan 1500 record at about age 27?
I mean, those fit your narrative more directly than the age at which he started competing for the US instead of Kenya, I think.
Yes, very hard to evaluate across eras. So much has changed in terms of strength of competition, technology, training, professionalism and as always, people just get faster. What’s clear is that Shorter winning in Munich was the greatest moment is US distance running history. (I’m considering Ryun’s exploits limited to middle distance).
I’m going with Billy Mills 10k gold as better than Shorter at Munich.
Totally agree. However Lagat doesn’t count, hate to say it but by that logic shoukd Chelimo not count as well? I def think lagat shouldn’t count but it begs a question of Chelimo.
Are you discounting Lagat and Chelimo for being born abroad?
You do realize that Shorter & Salazar were also born abroad, right?
No - but developed “abroad”? Absoloutly! Take away Lagat & Chelimo (and others) and the US is not as much the distance power we perceive it to be. There are a lot of East Africans in the US record books. Imagine Ryan Crouser suddenly changing allegiance and competing for Kenya. Putting all their throwing records into the stratosphere. How silly would that be? He is as Kenyan as a 4th of July parade. It’s the same thing! Let’s not kid ourselves - most of these records Fisher is trying break were set with East African legs, hearts & lungs. So to answer the OP question, yes. If he continues at this trajectory, Grant Fisher may very well be the best American distance runner ever.
Wouldn't it be more relevant to your point to say Lagat won his first Olympic medal (bronze) at about age 26, and set the still-standing national Kenyan 1500 record at about age 27?
I mean, those fit your narrative more directly than the age at which he started competing for the US instead of Kenya, I think.
Point taken. Since the thread is about the American GOAT, I wanted to limit my consideration of Lagat to what he accomplished as an American. I also believe Lagat’s greatest international championship accomplishment was his double gold in 2007 at age 32, nearly 33. But yes, your point, and mine, help illustrate that if Fisher can stay healthy his best days may still be ahead of him.
You moonbounce track and super shoe guys crack me up. These guys bust your heir ass and have to hear this crap. Tracks-shoes-equipment and yes-athletes have gotten much better. They just have improved with everything else.