After witnessing the barrage of lightning fast times this past weekend by the Bowerman Track Club I have been left with my jaw on the floor wondering how?
But looking back further into the past few years it has been clear that what happened this past weekend was actually par for the course for this elite group. Fisher's 12:53 was no doubt a huge PR, but it probably lines up very closely with his 5th place finish in the 10,000m in Tokyo. The other achievements are also nothing out of the ordinary for this group or these athletes.
With all that said, I think we can conclude:
1. It wasn't primarily the track surface
2. It wasn't primarily the shoe tech
3. It wasn't primarily the talent of the athletes
The consistent dominance of BTC over other American groups is most likely attributed to knowledge. The secret isn't "there is no secret" as Parker wrote all those years ago. BTC has a secret. Whether its related to training, nutrition, pharmaceuticals (legal type), or other reasons. There is clearly a gap in this groups ability to develop and sustain top talent that is unparalleled in the running community.
Undoubtedly the fast track + super spikes could have been worth about 10 seconds combined in the 5000m.
However, it is impossible to deny BTC is a top group. Jerry’s training plan must be fairly good - anecdotally new athletes that join talk about how hard the sessions are compared to what they’re used too. This is similar to Andy Youngs group (hard sessions) with Muir and Reekie, arguably just as impressive a group as BTC, expect with less mileage. This might explain why they don’t have quite the same injury rate as BTC.
Something that has to be mentioned is the groups injury rate and drop outs from the club, which is a disheartening thing about BTC. Good to see them racing more so far this year, though.
GDS compared Young v Schumacher in the recent Run Your Mouth podcast. Said in Glasgow they did 40-50 miles a week max and were smashing workouts all year round while with Schumacher it was a more periodized methodical build. She does 80-90 miles a week now.
Also said Schumacher was very collaborative and open to her input while Young had a plan and that was that. Said that with Schumacher though the collaboration was "earned" or something to that effect. I could see people like GDS, Ahmed, a bit older who are world finalists/top 20 all time in their main event could get more room to set their training needs than say Sinclaire Johnson fresh out of college.
RE: Young and injuries, curiously she also said she and Young didn't end on good terms. She's said elsewhere she got injured indoors 2020 to the point it hurt to walk and also pulled out of some indoor races in 2019 with an Achilles injury. I'd also point out Muir missed most of 2017 with Achilles injury and half of 2019 with a calf tear. Both years she just missed a medal. Now she's missing the whole indoor season with a mystery back injury. 3/6 seasons with a substantial injury for Muir and 2/2 for GDS isn't a low injury rate. If he had a pro group with 20 athletes in it, I imagine it would be just as noticeable as BTC, if not more.
They improve far more than ALL other professional and collegiate groups, who are led by the best coaches in the world. Only Scott Simmons group is even close.
Scott Simmoms lol!!!
He is good and his program works. He coached me to some solid times a few years back.
After coaching high school for many years I came to the conclusion that many college, pro coaches are over rated.
I had a former athlete who went D1 and then pro tell me that I was the best coach he ever had.
Most of the others just drove athletes into the ground and hoped they survived. He also said that many were set in their ways and treated everyone the same and wouldn't change.
Maybe part of it is better coaching?
Maybe that attracts better athletes?
Just a thought.
I generally agree with the first part of your post.
i split 49.9, ran 1:57, 4:29 1600m, and 16:19 5k in high school.
I ran 49.3, ran 1:51, and a 4:06 mile in college.
My high school coach was my favorite coach ever even though I ran much faster in college (i won more in high school too!). College coaches seem to spend 50%+ of their time recruiting the next class so you don't get the attention you may need, especially when you are young and eager and not finding the success you may have had in H.S.. They spend the rest of their time trying not to overtrain athletes and keeping them from screwing up in some major way. Or reminding them to be patient because they are suddenly competing against adults 3-4 years older (and much better) than them.
High school track/XC was way more fun than college. I have more close friends from the college experience, but that's probably because it was more miserable and we were suffering together. I didn't even race for 2.5 years in college because I was so beat up. My best race was my last race because i didn't care. If there are high schoolers reading this, enjoy it. College will likely, but not for certain, be less fun in terms of running but more fun in every other way. Would be interested in reading other runner's experiences too and hope I was the minority
The “secret” is taking the best athletes in N. America, throwing all the eggs against the wall, calling the ones that don’t break a success, and forgetting the ones that break down and underperform. I am sure Simon Bairu, Tim Nelson, Chris Derrick, German Fernandez and the other mega-talented underperformers through the years would love to be let in on the BTC “secret.”
Fisher admitted as much in a recent interview. He said you get destroyed by a huge increase in both volume AND intensity, and either start thriving or… don’t. He said thankfully he started thriving.
This style of coaching is not secret, or impressive in my opinion. It’s quite common in the NCAA. My PAC-10 coach had the same system: huge step up in volume and intensity, no personalization, one size fits all. Guess what, tons of people break. I think of my recruiting class of 8, one (1!) made it through all 4 years of eligibility without getting chronically injured, cut, or quitting.
Jerry is just doing the same thing but with the very best athletes. He probably doesn’t have time to individualize training and properly manage intensity to avoid trashing some of our best— he’s trying to keep up with the latest developments in our sport, like knowing what nandrolone is.
I agree that lots of college coaches throw the eggs against the wall - or at least they used to.
But Jerry? No. Please tell me 1 person in the group who hasn't done well at least for a bit. Kate Grace?
Chris Derrick at 7:43/13:08/2:12 is a bust by Bowerman standards and his college pbs wer 7:36/13:19.
The secret is a) they get super talent and b) train them very hard and very smart as the 2nd poster said.
They improve far more than ALL other professional and collegiate groups, who are led by the best coaches in the world. Only Scott Simmons group is even close.
Scott Simmons also highly suspected as a doping coach
Undoubtedly the fast track + super spikes could have been worth about 10 seconds combined in the 5000m.
However, it is impossible to deny BTC is a top group. Jerry’s training plan must be fairly good - anecdotally new athletes that join talk about how hard the sessions are compared to what they’re used too. This is similar to Andy Youngs group (hard sessions) with Muir and Reekie, arguably just as impressive a group as BTC, expect with less mileage. This might explain why they don’t have quite the same injury rate as BTC.
Something that has to be mentioned is the groups injury rate and drop outs from the club, which is a disheartening thing about BTC. Good to see them racing more so far this year, though.
GDS compared Young v Schumacher in the recent Run Your Mouth podcast. Said in Glasgow they did 40-50 miles a week max and were smashing workouts all year round while with Schumacher it was a more periodized methodical build. She does 80-90 miles a week now.
Also said Schumacher was very collaborative and open to her input while Young had a plan and that was that. Said that with Schumacher though the collaboration was "earned" or something to that effect. I could see people like GDS, Ahmed, a bit older who are world finalists/top 20 all time in their main event could get more room to set their training needs than say Sinclaire Johnson fresh out of college.
RE: Young and injuries, curiously she also said she and Young didn't end on good terms. She's said elsewhere she got injured indoors 2020 to the point it hurt to walk and also pulled out of some indoor races in 2019 with an Achilles injury. I'd also point out Muir missed most of 2017 with Achilles injury and half of 2019 with a calf tear. Both years she just missed a medal. Now she's missing the whole indoor season with a mystery back injury. 3/6 seasons with a substantial injury for Muir and 2/2 for GDS isn't a low injury rate. If he had a pro group with 20 athletes in it, I imagine it would be just as noticeable as BTC, if not more.
Yeah, it was striking listening to GDS speak about the "infantilization" she experienced w/ Young and how she's thriving under quite the opposite w/ Schumacher.
The “secret” is taking the best athletes in N. America, throwing all the eggs against the wall, calling the ones that don’t break a success, and forgetting the ones that break down and underperform. I am sure Simon Bairu, Tim Nelson, Chris Derrick, German Fernandez and the other mega-talented underperformers through the years would love to be let in on the BTC “secret.”
Fisher admitted as much in a recent interview. He said you get destroyed by a huge increase in both volume AND intensity, and either start thriving or… don’t. He said thankfully he started thriving.
This style of coaching is not secret, or impressive in my opinion. It’s quite common in the NCAA. My PAC-10 coach had the same system: huge step up in volume and intensity, no personalization, one size fits all. Guess what, tons of people break. I think of my recruiting class of 8, one (1!) made it through all 4 years of eligibility without getting chronically injured, cut, or quitting.
Jerry is just doing the same thing but with the very best athletes. He probably doesn’t have time to individualize training and properly manage intensity to avoid trashing some of our best— he’s trying to keep up with the latest developments in our sport, like knowing what nandrolone is.
I agree that lots of college coaches throw the eggs against the wall - or at least they used to.
But Jerry? No. Please tell me 1 person in the group who hasn't done well at least for a bit. Kate Grace?
Chris Derrick at 7:43/13:08/2:12 is a bust by Bowerman standards and his college pbs wer 7:36/13:19.
The secret is a) they get super talent and b) train them very hard and very smart as the 2nd poster said.
I'd even push back on the Kate Grace point. Upon joining BTC she started to focus more on 1500 work in her own admission due to fear of losing her speed as she got older. And guess what she PR'd in the 1500. She won some decent quality meets, missed out on a Worlds team by a whisker vs 3:54 Houlihan, 3:58 Simpson, and Nikki Hiltz running the perfect race tactically (while Grace did way too much work off the rail - familiar?). She ran 4:01 and came 5th at Trials in her 2nd best event. If that's running poorly then I don't know what to say.
NOP first , than the Boss Group. BTC can’t be taken seriously with a Nadrolone user still on the web site roster . Shalane and Jerry had the choice to put distance from the anabolic steroid user , or stand by her . They chose to stand by her and not sign the clean sport initiative with the majority of other US athletes.
Just a reminder that America is not the world, and BTC has precisely zero global gold medals to its name. It's the best group in the US, that's as much as you can conclude
You are just flat out, wrong. Great homework dude.
Mo Ahmed, Courtney Freirchs, Evan Jager,
None of those has won a global gold medal. Great reading dude.
The only thing different now is how many he can get in this shape at one time.
Yeah, this is the point of the whole thread. How is he keeping more and more athletes healthy and performing at a high level. Whats the secret sauce.
I hate to say it's the shoes, but... it's the shoes. Whatever you think about the time advantage conferred by the super shoes, they certainly leave you less beat up so recovery is easier
Would be interested in reading other runner's experiences too and hope I was the minority
I've written on here many times about my mostly-bad college running experience. Based on the anecdotes I read on here we are far from alone, but maybe still in the minority. Maybe worth its own thread.
In hindsight I think I would have done much better sticking with my high school coaches in some sort of hypothetical European-style club setup. My college coach loved gut-busting interval and hill workouts and encouraged workout warrior behavior. Between that and racing a ton (especially indoors), the NCAA system left me feeling burnt out and tired most of the time.
To bring it back on topic, I would like to echo what another poster said about how "muh hard training, muh high mileage" doesn't prove jack sh.t as to whether BTC is doping. Stuff like nandrolone literally helps you do that kind of training without getting hurt. That's the point.