Americans need to stop aiming for 2:09 marathons and start shooting for at least 2:05

OP -- you just gotta tell every elite to train for 3:00 k's instead of 5:00 miles. I'm sure they just don't want to run any faster than 2:09.

This is Jim Kiler wrote:

SDSU Aztec wrote:

It's difficult for an American to find a race to run the fast. Marathons like London and Berlin, have a front group, including pacers, that run crazy fast through halfway and beyond. It would be suicidal for an American to run with that group and they would end up running in no man's land instead.

We don't know this for sure, because no Americans ever go to those races. Not even Rupp, our best-ever guy.

American marathoners have been the JV team for decades now. All our efforts are on qualifying slow-ass people for the trials through the half and full. It's a glorified fun run.

Ryan Hall did and it worked out for him in London but I guess that is going to far back now

I'm not impressed with your mind reading. This thread is based on the belief that an AR should be the goal of the top American marathon runners but they have their own priorities. I believe the best strategy for them would be podium finishes with subsequent prize money and making Olympic teams. They only run 2-3 per year so would they want to burn one off for an all or nothing, AR attempt and possibly run for free that day?

Rupp's Bronze Medal and last year's OT win have more cachet than an AR would.

Their body is too bulky. 2:09 is their 2:05. But East Africans suck at every other sports but running.

Fax wrote:

The times our men shoot for are considered beyond disastrous for African runners. We need to normalize better times instead of being satisfied eeking under 2:10.

Ok. You first.

Idiot Spotter wrote:

What a horribly cold take!

You wrote your whole essay and nothing is close to true.

The best marathoners ever, Kipchoge, Bekele, Tergat, Geb... They were all great at shorter distances in their youth. Even the best US marathoners were great runners in high school.

If we want success in the marathon we need great runners with shorter and smaller builds. Someone built like Centro could possibly be great... Small, lightweight, with the speed to run 4x 28 min 10k pace.

Somehow waiting for a generational talent to come along who's good at every distance doesn't seem like the right approach. Even Kipchoge is much, much better at the marathon distance than at 5K (a decade of world domination and a WR are on another level than one WC gold).

Your argument seems to be that it's just genetics - we need more people who are built for the marathon. Genetics are important and you may even be right. But in that case, our only hope is massive immigration, because other areas of the world have much higher populations of the perfect marathoner body type than we do.

Even then, though, you have to identify the talented marathoners, and marathon talent is imperfectly correlated with shorter distances. If you build a system that identifies star 1600-5K runners and feed them into a system that identifies star 5K-10K runners, don't be surprised if you're missing a lot of HM-marathon talent.

The best 5/10K runners are also very likely to be the best marathoners and there are hundreds of examples. There is no need to take an East Germany approach to sports.

Get Metric wrote:

You see the Japanese have thrown a wrench in it’s the just the genetics argument. They have the mindset and use the metric. Get aboard the mindset metric train friends.

Noone with any clue says it's JUST the genetics argument. However, given all the non genetic factors that are helpful to Japanese marathon culture and talent, it makes one wonder why they are absent from the 202/03/sub 2.04.56 crew and still very very few, ever, sub 2.07. Population more than double Kenya's.

The idea that the metric vs Mile thing is a really big deal in setting elite goals doesn't really tie in with European marathoning (UK is in Europe but also outside it, long story, not too relevant on 2.05 marathon details)

It's more about not just shooting for top American, but shooting for top possible finish

Top American mindset limits

The US doesn't have the talent pol/genetics or whatever you want to call it.

https://trackandfieldnews.com/tfn-interview-paul-chelimo/

It’s very crazy. I started at 15:09. I can even remember the graph of how I’ve been improving all the years. My first 5K was 15:09 as soon as I started training

They knew I was talented because I tried my first 5K and I ran 15:09, my second 5K I ran 14:54, and then the third 5K I ran 14:45—all of them at altitude.

Calabasa wrote:

I can barely run a mile in 7:00. You expect me to aim for a 2:05 marathon ??

yes

Agreed. And we need at least 4 trained together to support each other with that capability. With the idea of podium sweeping . Set some higher goals. Take the Seidel approach and run like you belong up there to the finish.

Why must we pretend that race has nothing to do with it? Does anyone honestly believe east Africans just try harder?

hobbyjogger1 wrote:

Agreed. And we need at least 4 trained together to support each other with that capability. With the idea of podium sweeping . Set some higher goals. Take the Seidel approach and run like you belong up there to the finish.

Seidel's PR is 10 minutes slower than the record... by that standard any American male running under 2:10 should be good enough to please you.

Liberals are morons wrote:

Why must we pretend that race has nothing to do with it? Does anyone honestly believe east Africans just try harder?

And so do the Japanese

But really it’s not about how hard you train but how smart you train.

Running harder doesn’t necessarily make you faster but may make even slower. It’s about correct volume and intensity within the larger realm of the overall picture. Coaches like Renata Canova gets that and has had massive success. I would like to see more American talent go and work with coaches like him.

Oh and Canova prescribes workouts where the runners go at 3:00 kilometer pace. Once they drop off the pace they are done the workout. They do this even at high altitude. So when race day comes at low altitude running that 3:00 kilometer pace feels easy in comparison. Thus they produce 2:06 type of performances. I know the metric argument annoys the imperialists but there is validity to it.

Crazy idea, but maybe people of European ancestry aren't best suited for road racing and long distance on the track. But at least in cycling, XC skiing, ultras and mountain races people of Europeans ancestry dominate. What is Kenya's or Ethiopia's 24 hour national record? I'd be surprised if the male national record for those countries is better than the US female national record. Or let's look at a ultra that pure marathoners can excel at, comrades marathon. Has a Kenyan or Ethiopian ever got top five there? And before someone says something about money. I don't know what the contracts look like but my guess is that the top ultra and mountain guys make more than a 2:05 marathoner from Kenya or Ethiopia(ask the average hobby jogger about Courtney Dauwalter vs who won the Berlin marathon this year. Guarantee most of them will know the former rather than the latter. When a company is thinking about a athletes worth that's what they're thinking about). Probably be better to focus on what we are good at rather than occasional top ten finish because some of the East African runners blew up in the second half of the marathon. Michael Jordan wasn't the best at baseball, but is on the mount Rushmore in basketball. Likewise if your talent is only going take you so far in a certain sport why not focus on a different sport where you are going do a lot better at?

Ryan Hall and Galen Rupp have run 2:06. Neither won footlocker in high school. America has plenty of talent. The we’re white European argument has no validity. It’s just an excuse.

Get Metric wrote:

Ryan Hall and Galen Rupp have run 2:06. Neither won footlocker in high school. America has plenty of talent. The we’re white European argument has no validity. It’s just an excuse.

2:06 is a little different from 2:01-2:03. Unless people of European ancestry start running sub 26:30 in 10000 and sub 2:04 for the marathon. They're not going be competitive at the very top of the sport. I mean if people enjoy being in the minor league, be my guess enjoy sneaking in top ten at the NYC marathon. And the only reason Americans can get a bronze or silver at the Olympics or world championships is that Kenya and Ethiopia can only send 3 athletes each.