5K/10K Training plan: what's in vogue? what simply works?

who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:

Looking for a 5K training plan for a 30y+ distance guy to improve speed on approx. 60 miles per week.

I started to run late and jumped straight in longer distances like half and thon.

My best time is 75 mins for the half but now I'm in a bit worse shape now.

So far I looked at Daniels 2nd edition, but I'm not very inspired and I suppose people should have come up with smth newer from that time. I liked Pete Magill's take on the distance in solving-the-5k-puzzle, especially the hill work, but it seems that plan is badly lacking tempos in the base phase.

How would you train for the distance? Any 12-16 week plan you recommend and why? An outline of phases and progression of workouts through these phases will go long way.

Have you done any race or time trial recently?

The sober truth is that the "best" training is not sexy and does not involve complex formulas. It's about CONSISTENT MUNDANE training.

In your scenario, run 60 miles a week for 20 weeks straight and then cut back mileage for 2 weeks and you'll be ready to PR in anything from the 5k to the half.

Do a "long-run" every week, for you about 12-13 miles, if you feel good run it fast, if not run it slow.

Do a 4 mile tempo run every week, don't need a fancy formula, just run "comfortably hard," some weeks it will be faster, some weeks it will be slower.

I prefer running hill reps over track intervals. If you can find a long, gradual gradient hill that takes somewhere between 60s - 120s to run up that's perfect. Just run it "hard." Track your progress on it. As you get fitter add more reps, run up the hill faster.

Look at Ben True’s training for what works: a day of race pace workouts, a day of speed or strides, a tempo, and the rest easy runs.

^this. I also up my tempo distance from 4 to 5 miles over time, and early base I do 10K paced intervals with some fast 200s at end for a few weeks, then devote 2 workouts a month to top end speed. Once you zero in on your target season, start doing 5K paced interval workouts, 800s, 1200s, etc. After a few races do 3K and mile paced workouts before your peak race. short taper, then 5K

Come on guys, you are not running same 4 mile tempo every week no matter if you train for a mile or marathon!? I did SOM last summer on 75 miles and it worked well but I'm looking for a better investment of my time and want to focus on speed side.

Regarding my shape, I didn't do time trials but from workouts I'd guess I'm 5-10 sec/mile slower than my peak shape. Still doesn't see how it changes training plan.

I'm now in a base and my regular week looks like a speed session (200 or 400 reps with plenty recovery), tempo (20 mins, or 4 x mile on 200 jog, or 6 x 1k on 200 jog) and a LR 1h40+. All other stuff is easy running with strides and short hill sprints every other week.

who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:

Come on guys, you are not running same 4 mile tempo every week no matter if you train for a mile or marathon!? .

Why not? Running 20-30 at around LT is a really solid way to improve your aerobic ability for any distance event. Realistically you want to mix it up with things up with various efforts from 10k-MP and continuous runs and intervals. In your base I would do 2 of these a week with just a big of speed (say 4*400 with like 3 my on rest) at the end.

As you get closer to 5k time, you start adding in more volume at 5k pace.

Consistent mileage, a bunch of threshold and sub threshold work sometimes mixed into a long run and strides. As you get close to race time start inserting VO2 max work 4-6 weeks out.

who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:

Come on guys, you are not running same 4 mile tempo every week no matter if you train for a mile or marathon!? I did SOM last summer on 75 miles and it worked well but I'm looking for a better investment of my time and want to focus on speed side.

Go ahead my man, toss & turn, freight & ponder, research into oblivion, wonder all day and night about the "best training." But at the end of the day, a long run, 4 mile tempo, and hill repeats every week will get you where you want to go. Get out the door and start doing it instead of toiling on LR about 7 x 3 min @ 92.5-93.4% HR with 42 seconds recovery sustaining 3.8 - 4.0 mmol lactate,,,,,blah blah blah it doesn't matter. Do the same training week for 20 weeks straight and a would bet my life's savings you'll PR, don' worry about the periodized, phase whatever training. Enjoy the simplicity, embrace the feel of the run, have fun getting out the door everyday.

I swear science is ruining this sport. It's supposed to be a lifestyle, a journey, self-discovery, a self-inflicted suffering. You suffer everyday for the feeling you get afterward. Run fast on the days you feel good, embrace the suck on the days you don't.

"Workouts" are just things we do to make ourselves feel good, to write in our logs to admire. The truth is, if you lived in a log cabin in the woods for a year and just ran how long and how fast you felt like everyday, listened to your body and let that determine your training, you'd PR in everything from the mile to the marathon, yes. Your running log might be boring to look at but you'd be fit.....

jsdnfjk wrote:

I swear science is ruining this sport. It's supposed to be a lifestyle, a journey, self-discovery, a self-inflicted suffering. You suffer everyday for the feeling you get afterward. Run fast on the days you feel good, embrace the suck on the days you don't.

"Workouts" are just things we do to make ourselves feel good, to write in our logs to admire. The truth is, if you lived in a log cabin in the woods for a year and just ran how long and how fast you felt like everyday, listened to your body and let that determine your training, you'd PR in everything from the mile to the marathon, yes. Your running log might be boring to look at but you'd be fit.....

No.

Seppo Kaitenenn wrote:

jsdnfjk wrote:

I swear science is ruining this sport. It's supposed to be a lifestyle, a journey, self-discovery, a self-inflicted suffering. You suffer everyday for the feeling you get afterward. Run fast on the days you feel good, embrace the suck on the days you don't.

"Workouts" are just things we do to make ourselves feel good, to write in our logs to admire. The truth is, if you lived in a log cabin in the woods for a year and just ran how long and how fast you felt like everyday, listened to your body and let that determine your training, you'd PR in everything from the mile to the marathon, yes. Your running log might be boring to look at but you'd be fit.....

No.

I bet you've never broke 14 otherwise you'd understand....

I may do this for my marathon training, at least while base-building.

I've been able to run 35 mpw easily, no injuries, and I had taken 4 months off running completely.

I will run without looking at my watch, or not wear one at all, to be honest. I run by feel/breathing. If I am going too fast I know to slow it to where I can run smoothly and breathe out of my nose.

What simply works?:

1. Easy miles. Lots of them. But EASY. Do as many as you can. If 60mpw is your max, that’s ok. 90-100 would be better. But EASY. You should feel you are reigning yourself in intentionally on these. If you’re not fresh and springy by the end, you did it wrong. If it negatively impacts your run the next day, you did it wrong. If you can’t do some snappy strides at the end, you did it wrong. If you’re tired for your workout days, you did it wrong.

Note: this exaggerates a bit as some days you will feel like dogshyt no matter what, but the point is huge and most people mess it up.

2. Consistency. Say you have 180 days until target race. It’s much more important to run 175 of those days than to overdo it and miss weeks with injury. If you feel a bad twinge, stop the workout. Walk home if needed.

When I was young, I would try to finish everything, and at the desired paces. Injuries galore. Remember: the goal is to run tomorrow.

3. Threshold. And lots of it. Huge bang for the buck. Hard enough to get huge aerobic benefits, easy enough to not destroy yourself. Do 25-30 minutes of work, divided up in different units to prevent boredom. 5x 5 minutes. 10x3 minutes. 20x90s. I advise measuring by time instead of distance so you focus on proper effort. Keep the rests 30 to 90s max.

4. Speed. Touch it at least weekly. 100s, 150s, 200s. Short hills.

5. Race pace. 600s and 1000s. You only need to do these the last 4-6 weeks before the goal race.

That’s it. Simple, but not easy.

+1

who_let_the_dogs_out wrote:

Come on guys, you are not running same 4 mile tempo every week no matter if you train for a mile or marathon!? I did SOM last summer on 75 miles and it worked well but I'm looking for a better investment of my time and want to focus on speed side.

Actually for the majority of the year, 4-5 mile tempo, yes. Of course you could always break it up into longer intervals with short rest, 3 x 10 min for example. But when the season gets close, you can ditch the tempo frequency and work on race pace intervals for 5K and top end speed, then for peaking do some 3K and mile paced workouts.

+2

These are always some of my favorite threads. People looking for new things, but there is nothing really that new. Just keep doing the simple things. Easy easy easy days, some tempo, some race pace or faster, but not too much. Repeat over and over again.

Someone brought up Ben True's training. That excel sheet that was floating around a while ago really illustrates what people are saying in here. A year or two ago there was also a spreadsheet showing Connor Mantz's training. I remember it looking almost identical to True's. And different distance, but Lee Troop talking about Jake Riley's training leading up to the Marathon trials was pretty much identical to the other runners.

I like how the op dismisses Daniels as uninspiring and basically old hat. 4 mile tempos? Gimme a break! Come on guys, what's the latest thing? smh

this is it wrote:

I like how the op dismisses Daniels as uninspiring and basically old hat. 4 mile tempos? Gimme a break! Come on guys, what's the latest thing? smh

What is amazing is how well the old lydiard base holds up.

2 days of 60 min of mp work

1 day of shorter sprints

Strides, a long run, and a lot of easy miles.

We can debate 15k, hm pace, or MP pace for the quality aerobic work but the differences tend to be pretty minor compared to just doing the work.