Assuming I'm looking to maximize my potential as a Masters runner, how much difference does 80 vs 100 vs 120 mpw make?

Thanks a lot for sharing this! You're a beast and those are times I aspire to achieve in the future

The Wizard JS wrote:

Yes! )))) Very horrible results !...... 2:07:38 win in Valencia marathon 2016, 2:10 45 win in Nice -Cannes marathon 2016 , 2:08:46 in Paris marathon , 2:09:26 4th place in Eindhoven marathon , 2:10 46 in Eindhoven marathon ......and a lady debute 2:26:30 .......sooo very bad results , hahahaha!! When will you stalkers understand that I`M ONE OF THE VERY BEST!!!!

Please stop lying.

You are one of the worst because you lie.

TimM thanks for sharing, agree with Hazel, you are a total beast, and your post is very helpful and inspiring. A lot of miles at 2+ min over MP. Great example of high mileage weeks for any runner, let alone someone that is 50+. Amazing durability given your age. Probably need another thread on your diet and recovery routines! For another time...

Agreed! Hopefully TimM can see this and post some thoughts on those topics.

Would appreciate seeing the remainder of his CIM training log if he gets the chance as well :)

you are right. my mistake!

for some reason, i was sure that i have read about 800m and not marathon.

anyway, thanks!

Hazel wrote:

Current PR is 2:50, started running a few years ago in my early 30s and looking to get down to at least 2:30. I'm a believer of the Lydiard school and can appreciate the benefits of high mileage.

To a certain degree though do the marginal costs/risks outweigh the benefits? Looking to understand whether there's a "tipping point" in terms of weekly volume during one's base building.

Also does it matter whether the volume is in singles vs doubles as long the general structural of one long run and at least one tempo are maintained?

Thanks in advance

Definitely like 1.31 seconds.

Based upon all of your specific info.

For what it is worth, this link is to my training plan for my last marathon (2:30:44). You'll see it is based on a 10 day week, but otherwise, the core principles used to design this plan were the same core principles I used for the 7 day week training cycles I used for my other three marathons, also run as a masters athlete. I was already in decent running shape from a training cycle for Boston that had to be aborted due to a stress reaction, so I was more focused on recovering lost fitness than in starting to build fitness from scratch. So the fewer workouts were an accommodation to both age and injury, but also because I thought I was fit enough to be able to get away with a little less work (in an effort to make it to the starting line).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q8B64JFY27NJsZnM08z64PDqgUzHa6-hfl_u5E_nOo0/edit

Sorry, need to give attribution where due: this plan is a variation on the theme set forth in Training Plan A in the second edition of Daniels' Running Formula.

Thanks a lot for sharing this, and your Chicago time is incredible. Might I ask how many years you'd been running before this?

I'm further impressed because the result looks like it was achieved on relatively lower mileage vs some of the other plans & philosophies you see on here.

My sense is that if TimM posted more of his workouts, we would have had a lot of overlap - lots of long intervals at threshold pace with roughly a minute of recovery for every mile or so of work at threshold pace.

I ran in college and in grad school, then lost my way as a runner most of my mid 20s through my 30s. I started running seriously again at age 39 in an effort to break 16 one last time before I became a masters runner, and then that kind of turned into a springboard for better fitnes. I ran my first marathon in 2014 (NYC), and hit in the mid to upper 70s as my peak for that cycle. I then ran Chicago 2015 and hit the low 90s as my peak with one 100 mile week mixed in, but started to break down at that volume. I also ended up having surgery for plantar fasciitis after that, which led to about 7 months off from serious running. I came back for Boston 2017 after that surgery and peaked in the mid to upper 80s. I tried to come back for Boston 2018 and was in great shape and had hit in the low 90s for that cycle, but ended up with a stress reaction after a fast 15k in March. Took some down time, cross trained, and rolled into the cycle shown on the spreadsheet.

So I would say the 2018 time was the result of 5 years of marathon training, broken up by a couple of breaks for injuries.

Impressive stuff folks. Thanks for the inspiration. Cheers.

This plan works! I stole it from a previous post and adapted it for use for the recent FL Marathon. The best takeaway was that it got me in marathon shape with the minimum amount of work involved which is a Daniels guiding principle. While I don't have a PR to show for it, the extreme weather experienced that day gave everyone roughly a 15 minute time penalty and changed the goals to 1) finish 26.2, 2) BQ, and 3) finish in the top 10. Checked all of those boxes. To prove how difficult the weather was for the FL Marathon, the race winner, a female from NJ, was attempting an OTQ and came up 5 min short with her 2:50 when she was likely closer to 2:35 shape.

I'm going to give it another crack for my next marathon. If Boston happens in October, I'll use the cycle time you used to compensate for the FL summer weather and see how it works (as well as adapt my training paces based on a summer time trial 5k). The main thing for the summer will be to replenish electrolytes lost in the extreme humidity.

To answer the original question the OP had, I will agree with the comments given thus far but add that Daniels talks about the law of diminishing returns. I would argue that a jump from 60-70 mpw to 80 mpw will give more gains than a jump from 80 mpw to 100 mpw or 100 mpw to 120 mpw.

Also, don't forget the role of strength training as a masters athlete. When you're at 80 mpw, will adding a consistent strength training program yield more than adding 20 mpw? Strength training will, at least, make you more resistant against injury.

There is also the factor of life and quality sleep each night. I'll stick with 80 mpw with quality sleep over 100 mpw without.

Sorry ... lost track of this tread for awhile until it resurfaced. But thanks for the encouragement.

I pasted my CIM buildup into this Google Sheet. In early September of 2019, I ran the Blue Ridge Relay, then took a big down week. These are the weeks after that through CIM. The VA 10 Miler wasn't supposed to be part of my official marathon buildup, but peer pressure (and the fact that it's a great, historic race) won out over strict marathon training.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RqaBT5wnR5bTNnf3XS_tixV_OLqi8qRkbZnMwzrHIQQ/edit?usp=sharing

TimM wrote:

Sorry ... lost track of this tread for awhile until it resurfaced. But thanks for the encouragement.

I pasted my CIM buildup into this Google Sheet. In early September of 2019, I ran the Blue Ridge Relay, then took a big down week. These are the weeks after that through CIM. The VA 10 Miler wasn't supposed to be part of my official marathon buildup, but peer pressure (and the fact that it's a great, historic race) won out over strict marathon training.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RqaBT5wnR5bTNnf3XS_tixV_OLqi8qRkbZnMwzrHIQQ/edit?usp=sharing

I am most impressed you were able to down 6 maurtens on course! haha. But seriously did you have to carry them on your person or did you get bottles/aid? If you carried them on your person what shorts or compact waist pack did you use?

npurdy1112 wrote:

I am most impressed you were able to down 6 maurtens on course! haha. But seriously did you have to carry them on your person or did you get bottles/aid? If you carried them on your person what shorts or compact waist pack did you use?

Funny you ask that! Of all the things I've tried to figure out about running marathons, fueling (what to use, how much, and where to store it), has been the trickiest to figure out. In general I've run into more trouble underfueling than taking in too much, so I try to get in as much as I can. I've tried all sorts of ways to carry gels - some better than others - but what I used at CIM worked the best. I wore an old pair of Adidas Supernova short tights (not sure they make them any more), which have a deep pocket on each side, plus a zip pocket in the back. I'd had them for years, but for some reason had never run a marathon in them until CIM. So I was able to fit two Maurtens in each side pocket, 1 in the back pocket, and one in each glove, for a total of 7. I had planned to take 6 at the miles indicated in my training log, but carried an extra in case I dropped one.

With age everything gets less flexible and the fastest muscle fibres decays first. Then there seem to be evidence that the relative endurance can be very strong for very long. I think this is a muscular problem. Less flexible and less powerful legs makes the running economy and the power go gradually down. I wonder if instead of hitting many miles at a slow enough pace to stay injury free is reinforcing this speed decay. We become what we train. The less we run fast, the less fast we get (not that we get slow because we train slow).

When I say muscular problem I think of the recovery from fast workouts. We do not manage too fast, too often or too long. I wonder if masters should focus differently. The older, the more fast and strengthening running we need to introduce, but gently. Such as keeping the maksimal strength in the legs with hill work. Or speed with often and gentle strides. Since speed is a matter of strength (not turnover really) I think this makes sense. And then keep the flexibility to support fast running.

A study also measured that old runners did not use the calves much relative younger runners. So to activate the calves, work with the running gait and strengthen the calves with rope skipping, etc.

I am soon 50 and trying to hit longer workouts, but it is no fun the day after. Splitting workouts into shorter and introducing cycling as an alternative a couple of days a week as gentle recovery has been nice.

Even if being a master and the gradual decay of the max potential is unavoidable, one can still have some way to go to your max potential. Improvement can be seen in new PBs, but also in comparing to your own age. I use a simple formula of 0.7% decay pr year after 30 and that is a nice way to compare towards others and my old PBs

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

Improvement can be seen in new PBs, but also in comparing to your own age.

Right, think of improvement to be had in Age Grade performance.

Jon Arne Glomsrud wrote:

use a simple formula of 0.7% decay pr year after 30 and that is a nice way to compare towards others and my old PBs

Here is a nice age-grading calculator for the roads, with the 2020, 2015 and 2010 performance factors available. (Note, the super shoes may be contributing to older guys getting faster.)

The following age-grading calculator distinguishes between the track and the roads, but it only contains the 2006/2010 performance factors:

Appreciate the reply! Good idea to carry a spare and one in each glove. Ive thought about stashing one in there or an arm warmer if they are needed on race day.