Should I run 9 minute miles on easy runs?

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3 years ago 07/09/2020 1:35pm EDT

re: pegasus2020

pegasus2020 wrote:
I do the majority of my runs at 8:20-8:30 pace with a heart rate around 144. My 5k is 19:50-20:10.
Would I get more aerobic benefit from dropping down to 9 minute miles?
I don't go slower than 8 minute miles because it feels awkward to me - like I am shuffling my feet. Sometimes I have to stop myself from dipping into 7 minute miles on easy runs especially when my legs are fresh. I don't really know what pace I should be aiming for...

How tall are you?

Age?

Weight?

Gender?

I do easy runs by feel but with that being said they should not be a walk in the park. I would run easy pace from 7:00-7:15 for majority of my 60-70 mile weeks and when I started doing that I went from barely breaking 17 to sub 16 and consistently low 16's. What I did when I was in 19:50 shape note sure because I honestly only have run that fast in my 1st two races then like 10 years later when I hadn't even been running at all.

3 years ago 07/09/2020 3:41pm EDT

re: westsouthrunner

There is no simple answer.

If you were to do all your running at sub-8 per mile pace running (30 to 45) miles per week, you will not automatically suffer injuries, suffer chronic fatigue &/or suffer psychological burnout.

If you were to do all your running over 10 minutes per mile pace, running (30 to 45) miles per week, you will not necessary avoid injuries and/or avoid chronic fatigue.

Is it possible for a person to do all runs over ten minutes pers mile pace to beat a runner who does all of her/his runs sub-8 per mile pace? Yes. Usually does not occur.

I walk with a limp. I run in an awkward manner if I run slower than 8 minutes per mile. No one can tell me I would avoid injuries by running more slowly. I state this because you stated your stride isn't smooth when you run slowly.

3 years ago 07/10/2020 1:04am EDT

re: run_doit

run_doit wrote:
George213 wrote:
[quote]Jan Stensson , Coach JS wrote:
[quote]pegasus2020 wrote:
I do the majority of my runs at 8:20-8:30 pace with a heart rate around 144. My 5k is 19:50-20:10.
Would I get more aerobic benefit from dropping down to 9 minute miles?
I don't go slower than 8 minute miles because it feels awkward to me - like I am shuffling my feet. Sometimes I have to stop myself from dipping into 7 minute miles on easy runs especially when my legs are
Normally I disagree with JS, but yeah, if 8:20-30 is indeed your regular easy pace and that 144 BPM is under 75% of your MHR, then you're in much better shape than a 20-mins 5k. When I just broke sub-40 for 10k, my easy pace hovered around 8:30-9:00 (and 9:30+ when I was tired).
Didn't understand 2 things from this thread:
1. How does one have 165bpm HR as Max for 5k unless it's not allout effort? Shouldn't it be around 180-190 by end of 5k? ( 30 yr old)
2. Also, in which way 144bpm is under 75% of MHR when OP posted his MHR for that particular 5k is 165?

I think the OP said 162 hr for the 5k, maybe that was average, so maximum might be around 175 which is low for 30 yrs old. If so, easy runs at 75% would be at 131 not 144. If hr was optical, maybe inaccurate. Maybe OP's max hr is 185, so easy 75% runs at 139?

3 years ago 07/10/2020 9:22am EDT

re: Another giver of +1

OP,

my 5K PR is ~ 17:30 -- probably I'm in the mid 18s at this moment -- and my easy runs in the summer are typically 9:00/mile or slower. it's humid where I am and that feels comfortable.

A rule like "easy pace = 5K pace + X", that's someone's estimate of the mean of the relevant distribution. But to make a solid guess at what you should do, you would also need A) the variance/spread/shape of that distribution and B) where you fall within it.

Because we don't know that information, how much weight to place on estimates like "5K pace + X" is hard to gauge; consequently, if you get a different signal from your body -- a signal like "9-minute pace feels good and leaves me fresh for workouts" -- I personally would go with that.

For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of faith in the validity of exercise science in general, so I don't place a lot of weight on various estimates of optimal paces.

3 years ago 07/10/2020 10:23am EDT

re: ScottEvil

I've been right in the OPs ballpark - though now I've improved a bit. I know how that shuffly feeling feels when you've got yourself running.

I would ignore the stuff about MaxHR for HR basis, and look at Karvonnen / Heart Rate Reserve.

Then target whatever pace gets you cruising along in Zone 2 as your easy run pace.

So for example, if your max is 170, your resting is 50, your zones would be:-

Z1 - 110 - 122 (50-60% HRR)

Z2 - 122 - 134 (60-70% HRR)

Z3 - 134 - 146 (70-80% HRR)

Z4 - 146 - 158 (80-90% HRR)

Z5 - 158 - 170 (90-100% HRR)

I dropped from 19:30 PB to 18:14 off the back of upping the mileage (from about 20mpw to about 35-40mpw) and running slower for easy, longer stuff. It surprised me, but it did work.

Don't control your effort by pace alone, control it by heart rate. One of the bonuses is that you'll probably find that your pace in Zone 2 improves as you train the aerobics better. So for example, for me when I was reasonably well trained last year I could knock out 7:40min/mile at about 130bpm. I've lost some fitness with no races to train for, so now I'm at about 8:20min/mile for that same sort of heart rate, but I know it will come down as I get back into the swing of things.

3 years ago 07/10/2020 4:43pm EDT

re: pegasus2020

My rule when I was a youngster: run fast enough on hard days to feel accomplished - could be 13 miles, with 7-10 really cranking. Run easy enough on recovery days to repeat the above.

3 years ago 07/10/2020 5:00pm EDT

re: Nutsack McGee

Nutsack McGee wrote:
1. If you don't have a chest strap to measure heart rate, and you are only using an optical measurement from a watch, then don't take the reading too seriously. You also won't be able to get an accurate measurement during the time of running an 800 like suggested as a test here.
2. According to your 5k PB: if that is your current fitness level, then, according to McMillan's calculator, your easy pace should be 7:15-8:15. So it makes sense that when you feel better, you naturally drop into the 7's. Just run by feel. If your pace is in the 7's that's okay, if it's in the 8's, that's okay too. You shouldn't need to make a conscious decision to force yourself to slow down or speed up on an easy run. Just let the pace be what it will while you run easy. Just run, baby.
3. You are not going to get any aerobic benefit from forcing yourself to slow down. You will have trouble recovering if you are lying to yourself about what feels easy and running too fast. However, depending on how you feel on any given day, your easy pace could be 7:15-8:15. According to McMillan, your recovery jog pace (within a day after a hard workout) could be 8:20-9:00.
(Note: My comments reference:
https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
, which I have found to be pretty helpful.)

That McMillan calculator isn't worth a damned thing if it's telling someone with a 19:50 5k pr that they can run easy runs at 7:15 at any point. That's only like 5k pace +45 seconds, no amount of freshness in your legs will make that an easy run.

3 years ago 07/10/2020 9:40pm EDT

re: ShilohDoesntCare

ShilohDoesntCare wrote:
Nutsack McGee wrote:
1. If you don't have a chest strap to measure heart rate, and you are only using an optical measurement from a watch, then don't take the reading too seriously. You also won't be able to get an accurate measurement during the time of running an 800 like suggested as a test here.
2. According to your 5k PB: if that is your current fitness level, then, according to McMillan's calculator, your easy pace should be 7:15-8:15. So it makes sense that when you feel better, you naturally drop into the 7's. Just run by feel. If your pace is in the 7's that's okay, if it's in the 8's, that's okay too. You shouldn't need to make a conscious decision to force yourself to slow down or speed up on an easy run. Just let the pace be what it will while you run easy. Just run, baby.
3. You are not going to get any aerobic benefit from forcing yourself to slow down. You will have trouble recovering if you are lying to yourself about what feels easy and running too fast. However, depending on how you feel on any given day, your easy pace could be 7:15-8:15. According to McMillan, your recovery jog pace (within a day after a hard workout) could be 8:20-9:00.
(Note: My comments reference:
https://www.mcmillanrunning.com/
, which I have found to be pretty helpful.)
That McMillan calculator isn't worth a damned thing if it's telling someone with a 19:50 5k pr that they can run easy runs at 7:15 at any point. That's only like 5k pace +45 seconds, no amount of freshness in your legs will make that an easy run.

Completely agree. As a point of reference, my 5k PR is 18:45 and my easy runs back in April/May hovered around 8:15 to 8:30, now with the heat and humidity I'm at 9+.

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