Team Ingebrigtsen vs. Team Bowerman

Bowerman Track club men have overraced this year... they will lose by forfeiture because they won't show up.

#returnofthedual

its streak wrote:

bagel bandit wrote:

Filip #6? He is not losing to Henrik over any distance, and can't see him losing to Centro or the other Americans over 2k. You do realize he'd just run a 2:16 1000m 40 minutes before, which made a huge impact in his run the other day? He's run 3:30 each of the last two years, I don't know which of the Americans you think are in that kind of shape.

That was my guess for a 5k scenario if it happened RIGHT NOW. As for not losing to Henrik over any distance, he just did. But of course the 1k played a big part in that.

That’s fair, but the general premise of this thread was a 2k and your post didn’t make it clear which you were referring to. I realize he “lost” to Henrik but anyone who’s followed the sport knows he’s better at 2k, and Henrik just ran a 4:53 if I recall correctly which is a pretty legit time. If Filip hadn’t run the 1k, I do think he would have been up with Jakob and they would likely both have broken 4:50. No Americans are beating the younger two, as has been the case the last two years on the circuit and Jakob especially is only improving, and it’s questionable whether any of them could even beat Henrik. Over 5k, Filip “only” has a 13:11 PR but he’s obviously in great shape and more of a 1500/5k runner than a speed guy and just ran a 2:16 1k. Lomong is amazing (both his story and as a person if you’re familiar with him) and both he and Ahmed (not American I realize) could beat Henrik and possibly Filip over 5k. Centro is not beating Filip over 5k, but maybe Henrik. I don’t think any of them are touching Jakob in 5k by now, Lomong might be better at 10k given how well he’s proven himself there but despite lack of experience I think Jakob will end up running some very impressive times in 10k and could probably already hit around what Rupp managed (26:40s).

idiotikos maximos wrote:

jack.ydn wrote:

Do you really think thats true though Ahmed beat jakob at world championships. Centro and lopez have better 5k times than jakob maybe a 3k would be a more fair. Who knows what fitness jager is at.

wth. Ahmed beat Jakob at the WCs? Yeah, by a hair and that's after Jakob ran a ton of grueling rounds. Please. Ahmed wouldn't stand a chance against Jakob in a stand alone 5k. How many guys have tried both the 1500 & 5000 in the same WCs? Not many do that.

Lol. Centro and Lopez have pretty much the identical time of Jakob...attained during an ideally paced TT.

Jakob has not had that opportunity. If he gets it it this year or 2021, with his sure improvement there's little doubt he would be much faster than those times. He could be sub 12:50 capable now.

The 5000 was first in Doha for both men, so your doubling argument is invalid. Also Ahmed ran 12:58 in Rome last summer, 6 weeks before Jakob ran his PR of 13:02 in London so I would say he is more than capable of beating Jakob in a stand-alone 5K.

Also if you look at the Doha final times, Ahmed beat Jakob by 1.8 seconds (and it was growing at the end if I remember right), which is a decent sized gap. It wasn't like he out-leaned him at the tap.

Errrr, Jakob had his first 1500 heat a couple of days after the 5000 final. Once he saw Edris was going to win you can tell he gave up. One would think he would be smart enough to know not get too crazy with energy and mental expenditure if you're not winning.

Watch the Rome race and watch the London race. Let me know what was paced better and get back to me. What was the last lap for Ahmed in the Rome race? What was the last lap for Jakob in London? The winner in Rome ran 12:52. Ahmed 6 seconds behind. The winner in London ran near 13:02 (Geb, a 12:40s runner). Jakob was .2 seconds behind the winner. Ahmed is not beating Jakob in a stand alone 5k.

I think the race would be

Jakob- 4:50 (Ran the time)

Centro-4:52 (based on last year's 3:32 and 13:00)

Henrik-4:53 (Ran the time)

Lomong-4:54 (Based on 3:37 1500m in 2019 and 7:37 Indoor 3K during Feb 2020)

Jager-4:55 (Ran 3:56 mile and 7:38 3K indoor during Feb. 2020)

Filip-4:56 (Ran the time)

Don’t forget Thompson the dudes for wheels

Do you have a problem with numbers?

Jakob ran 4.50, Henrik 4.53 and Filip 4:56! So who were most consistent as a whole (even with your optimistic predictions for the Americans)?

And - as pointed out by others - Filip would possible have been close to Jakob if Filip has not run a NR in the 1000m less than an hour before the 2000m

I agree that the brothers are incredible but I think that the Ugandan (Cheptegei, Jacob Kiplimo and ?) and especially the Etiophians (Fore example Barega, Kejelcha and Gebrhiwet) could challenge them.

jack.ydn wrote:

streak wrote:

The brothers would probably win, and that’s completely wild. Three running brothers from Norway would beat the best the United States could offer up.

Do you really think thats true though Ahmed beat jakob at world championships. Centro and lopez have better 5k times than jakob maybe a 3k would be a more fair. Who knows what fitness jager is at.

If you think Ahmed, Jager and Lomong could beat Jakob over 2k you're really dumb. Even prime shape Centro would not beat Jakob now. And that's not even fair to take prime shape because we don't now yet what will be Jakob in his prime shape.

Even Filip fully rested would beat them right now.

I totally agree that no North Americans (including Ahmed) have a chance to beat Jakob at the moment.

And it gets even worse for the Americans:

Jakob´s European Record in the 2000m is NOT a measure for what he can run right now.

The brothers ran primarily as a team making sure that all 3 (including the tired Filip) got reasonable times. They told afterwards that they intended to stay together until 500m left.

When watching the race video it is obvious that Jakob from the very start had to hold back to follow a pace which the pacemakers (and his brothers) could maintain.

When you can finish with a 54 sec lap it is obvious that you could have run the first 4 laps at a faster pace.

In a paced time trail for Jakob only he could possibly have run 58 seconds for each of the first 4 laps and still with a faster last one. I estimate that he could run about 4:48 under these conditions.

If Filip is in an equally good shape as Jakob and Henrik I think he could have run 4:50 (without a previous 1000m).

Henrik´s 4:53.?? is probably close to his level at this stage of the season.

---------------

But as Halvard said: Who know what the level of the brothers will be when they have been sharpening towards the coming DL races?

For you wondering if this was Jakob at his best on the 2K: His father and coach Gjert was telling the tv2 after the race:

"It was impressive. I think, under the right circumstances, he could have run close to the world record today. He has more in the tank."

Daltonj800m wrote:

I think the race would be

Jakob- 4:50 (Ran the time)

Centro-4:52 (based on last year's 3:32 and 13:00)

Henrik-4:53 (Ran the time)

Lomong-4:54 (Based on 3:37 1500m in 2019 and 7:37 Indoor 3K during Feb 2020)

Jager-4:55 (Ran 3:56 mile and 7:38 3K indoor during Feb. 2020)

Filip-4:56 (Ran the time)

You have Lomong/Jager who haven’t broken 3:37/3:55 in years beating Filip who ran 3:30 last year. That’s just not going to happen over 2k.

If all in (recent) peak shape, it would likely be:

- Jakob (3:30 2019)

- Filip (3:30 2019)

- Centro (3:32 2019)

- Lomong (3:37 2019)

- Henrik (ran 3:31 in 2015, but only 3:37 in 2019. I was impressed with how close he was to Jakob though)

- Jager (potential to be 4th, but no results)

There’s absolutely no debating the top 3. 4th/5th/6th would be different every time imo.

Agree with you and Objectiveobserver.

But with 4:53, I see Henrik getting 4th and beating Jager and Lomong most of the time. It's the first year since 2015 in which Henrik wasn't injured during most of the training season. I think he will be back near his prime shape this year and run between 3:33 and 3:31 if he decides to focus mostly on the 1500m and gets in a fast race like Monaco.

Centro with a 13 5k and a 3:32 1500m is well ahead for the moment.

I don´t think any runner outside East Africa can challenge Jakob in the 2000m right now.

And in East Africa only Cheptegei and Kejelcha come to mind. I don´t think Barega and Gebrhiwet are fast enough.

And Timothy will certainly not have a chance. The last lap in his 2000m was very "expensive" for him while Jakob almost got the last lap for free.

Timothy should be happy if Jakob doesn´t dethrone him in the 1500m this year!

macdaddy wrote:

Daltonj800m wrote:

I think the race would be

Jakob- 4:50 (Ran the time)

Centro-4:52 (based on last year's 3:32 and 13:00)

Henrik-4:53 (Ran the time)

Lomong-4:54 (Based on 3:37 1500m in 2019 and 7:37 Indoor 3K during Feb 2020)

Jager-4:55 (Ran 3:56 mile and 7:38 3K indoor during Feb. 2020)

Filip-4:56 (Ran the time)

You have Lomong/Jager who haven’t broken 3:37/3:55 in years beating Filip who ran 3:30 last year. That’s just not going to happen over 2k.

If all in (recent) peak shape, it would likely be:

- Jakob (3:30 2019)

- Filip (3:30 2019)

- Centro (3:32 2019)

- Lomong (3:37 2019)

- Henrik (ran 3:31 in 2015, but only 3:37 in 2019. I was impressed with how close he was to Jakob though)

- Jager (potential to be 4th, but no results)

There’s absolutely no debating the top 3. 4th/5th/6th would be different every time imo.

I don't care about peak shape. The race doesn't matter if you pull 2016 Jager and centro against Jakob and filip today. I men if Bowerman was on the line instead of Kenya on that day. That includes Filip's 1K 45min. prior. Of course he'd be higher at his peak, but speculation is more fun when you take things as is

Daltonj800m wrote:

I think the race would be

Jakob- 4:50 (Ran the time)

Centro-4:52 (based on last year's 3:32 and 13:00)

Henrik-4:53 (Ran the time)

Lomong-4:54 (Based on 3:37 1500m in 2019 and 7:37 Indoor 3K during Feb 2020)

Jager-4:55 (Ran 3:56 mile and 7:38 3K indoor during Feb. 2020)

Filip-4:56 (Ran the time)

Given the 1K prior for Filip and the lack of serious competition for everyone, I see this happening. It's essentially the Portland 5000m minus 3000m. They have glorified time trials in spades unlike Kenya and could probably hold their own without a stacked field.

Not a lot of respect for Thompson in this thread.

objectiveobserver wrote:

I agree that the brothers are incredible but I think that the Ugandan (Cheptegei, Jacob Kiplimo and ?) and especially the Etiophians (Fore example Barega, Kejelcha and Gebrhiwet) could challenge them.

You missed the best Ugandan lol.