The more I think about the way the Brown sports decision went down, the more OUTRAGED I become

runfasta wrote:

There is only 1 type of protest that will have any impact. If all of the women on the XC/Track team quit. This would mess up the schools Title XI argument and show solidarity with the sport. If you really want to support our sport, Brown University women need to stand up and do something and quitting the program is the ONLY thing that will have any impact. petitions, letters, lack of alumni donations won't do anything, only changing the Title XI calculation would help.

Hadn’t thought of this route but this would work pretty well I think. Men’s track getting cut in this instance has nothing to do with giving women more opportunity in sports. It’s solo a quota game which actually doesn’t have to be played by the administration. They should keep men’s track and not worry about a title IX lawsuit. Considering the support more women’s sports than men’s at Brown and 30+ sports total they can easily show women athletes are not discriminated against.

College sports is also about competing and competing at the highest level possible. For college athletes that is the D1 level. As a club, they wouldn’t be allowed to do that. Just not nearly as appealing for the athletes on the teams.

No, that's a HORRIBLE idea. We're outraged that the men's teams were cut, now you are asking for the women to voluntarily end their athletic careers too? You'd be doubling the number of people that get screwed.

The women can all ask to be put on the transfer portal. That will send a clear message to the administration. It doesn't mean the women have to quit, or even that they have to transfer. But it will tell the admin that they need to fix this or else there could be a mass exodus.

Harambe wrote:

It's true. The Ivy League could choose to just allow Brown's club team to run.

Without admin support I can't imagine they'd be very competitive after a season or two, though.

NCAA isn't going to allow an non-sanctioned team to compete in a meet intended only for Division 1 teams, like a conference meet.

As far as running as an unsanctioned club, they'd probably get into more trouble than it's worth by attempting to claim association with the university where it was explicitly denied. The best course of action is to appeal to the main club running organization to see if they'll allow something like "Providence Running Club" to compete

Racket wrote:

Harambe wrote:

It's true. The Ivy League could choose to just allow Brown's club team to run.

Without admin support I can't imagine they'd be very competitive after a season or two, though.

NCAA isn't going to allow an non-sanctioned team to compete in a meet intended only for Division 1 teams, like a conference meet.

As far as running as an unsanctioned club, they'd probably get into more trouble than it's worth by attempting to claim association with the university where it was explicitly denied. The best course of action is to appeal to the main club running organization to see if they'll allow something like "Providence Running Club" to compete

For some reason I thought someone said Brown was forbidding formation of a club team but I don't think that's the case so ignore the second part.

Another Perspective.... wrote:

I'm looking at this thread and it's not making any sense at all to me. I guess this is because my running (with the exception of a small amount of high school cross - got talked into it by one of my training posse Sophomore year and realized it was, for me, a waste of time) has always been unattached. I just don't have the memories of being on a team. The camaraderie that appears in Running With The Buffaloes apparently does exist, but I haven't experienced it (or sought it out). In fact, Chris Lear's Sub-4 book is more relatable to me. Webb doesn't seem to appreciate, much less need, the team element - and he leaves it behind at the end of the book.

I'm very sorry for you that you never had this experience. Teams have been my best friends from high school and college and the only people from high school I remain in very close contact with. As satisfying as it is to run a personal best it feels 10 times better when you did it on a day when your team needed the points. Training together, working together, hurting together, laughing together, living together. When you step up on to the line, you know you are about to experience pain. If you have someone you think of as a brother sweating next to you 4 miles into an 8k or a 10k you keep pushing for them because you know they do it for you. There is no way to ever match the experience of having a team of people who will subject themselves to pure torture in order to help you win. If you never had this with your team I expect they must have not been serious about the sport at all and I feel sorry for you.

Speak for yourself. You could have also run on a college team yet remain in the dark as to the larger landscape. I know the program I ran for was perpetually funded in part to retain NCAA D1 status for the basketball and football teams, which yes were showcase sports to gain the lion's share of fundraising even if they had lower GPAs and graduation rates coupled with worse records than us. And this was at a squarely midmajor program. Our budget (plus facilities, gear, etc.) was on a par (per capita) with women's volleyball and soccer. And that's okay, I begrudge nothing to anyone. But if there was a lower or no minimum of varsity sports for D1 status and/or no Title IX then I don't doubt they would have possibly killed off T&F + XC and just built a nicer dining hall exclusively for the ball sports boys.

If this is not coronavirus related, I would agree it seems urgency is not of importance (145 yrs of service). If Brown is not going to continue to keep a varsity TF/XC team, why does it need go away next fall? Why not put a 4 year horizon on it? Let the kids in the program and the kids committed continue but shut the door after that.

Completely Agree. This seemed a bit drastic. I am a recent alum of the Brown XC/Track Teams and although I wouldn't have loved less drastic changes, I think they would have been more agreeable.

For instance, lets say you cut recruiting spots and phase out the team over the next 4 years. I do see the problem with this that the teams over the next week years will be embarrassingly bad, especially at Heps, but at least you could give members of the team time to transfer or just finish out their college career.

Even a move to cut the XC team would make more sense than this. The team is predominately white and we have historically underperformed at Heps for XC.

The reason Brown's other sports aren't competitive isn't due to funding or recruiting spots, I would agree. I think a lot of it has to do with Brown is in the lower tier of the Ivy League. At the end of the day, Brown isn't a HYP so it can't attract the higher caliber big sport recruits that are barely good enough to scrap it into the Ivy League Academically.

I dare you to ask 20 people on the street what schools are in the Ivy League. Most people will name about 3. Worse yet, when you tell them Brown and Penn are, they will ask what Brown is and they will argue that Penn is in the B10. How can so many people be so dumb as to pay $300k for an Ivy education, especially at the lower Ivies?

run more not less wrote:

I dare you to ask 20 people on the street what schools are in the Ivy League. Most people will name about 3. Worse yet, when you tell them Brown and Penn are, they will ask what Brown is and they will argue that Penn is in the B10. How can so many people be so dumb as to pay $300k for an Ivy education, especially at the lower Ivies?

Do you realize how many schools other than ivies cost 80k a year, are all those people dumb too?

What is your tuition expenditure threshold for people to not be dumb?

I don't think many people care if 20 random people on the street know who good a school is. The point of an undergraduate degree is to position yourself well within the job market or into a top graduate program. The people who ultimately make hiring and admission decisions know that Brown is a good school.

The average Brown student pays significantly less than sticker after financial aid. Going to an Ivy League is not as expensive as many would think due to the abundant financial aid. The cost between a state school (especially for an out of state student) and an Ivy isn't terribly large. The schools that are the most expensive are the private colleges without a large endowment used to subsidize student costs.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/31/brown-costs-73892-a-yearbut-heres-how-much-students-actually-pay.html

Did you even read the article? Only 43% receive any discount which means 57% pay $300k. And many of the students who receive discounts are athletes. Canning some of the sports in exchange for sailing just upped the full price students to 60%.

Out of the 1000 schools in the US, only about 25 cost as much as the Ivies. Studies have proven that smart kids earn the same by attending their state school as if they had paid the silly amount to attend an ivy.

Given the state of affairs right now, I can’t bring myself to care that an Ivy League school’s team got demoted to club status. The kids parents and alumni boosters can fund the club’s activities.

doitanyway wrote:

Why not just say eff it and compete anyway? Forget their administration. Just do it themselves. Show up to meets, run as a club. And then just show up to the Ivy League championships anyway. What are they going to do, call the police and tell them they can’t run? Put on your jersey, get to the line, and tell your administration to shove it. Heck, bring a can of field paint and paint your own box. I guarantee the other athletes won’t mind and I hope the coaches would respect it. What’s it going to hurt? And yeah... I get it, no coaches, no travel funding, etc. It sucks. But just do it. Train your butt off and tell your AD where he can shove it.

Never going to happen.

Racket wrote:

Harambe wrote:

It's true. The Ivy League could choose to just allow Brown's club team to run.

Without admin support I can't imagine they'd be very competitive after a season or two, though.

NCAA isn't going to allow an non-sanctioned team to compete in a meet intended only for Division 1 teams, like a conference meet.

As far as running as an unsanctioned club, they'd probably get into more trouble than it's worth by attempting to claim association with the university where it was explicitly denied. The best course of action is to appeal to the main club running organization to see if they'll allow something like "Providence Running Club" to compete

if the team doesn't get reinstated, best course of action for distance runners at brown is to run nirca+ whatever big mayors/governors xc race in boston and peak for nirca or a race like nyc/philly marathon or philly half. It sucks, the guys went there to run ncaa xc, but the university doesn't look like it wants to allow it so that they can have 6 quarterbacks.

This does nothing to help african american sprinters or jumpers on the team. It is completely outrageous that Brown did this an is an example of disparate racial treatment in my opinion. They should enter the transfer portal and if it is too late, Change Divisions and run for an preeminent institution that values them as athletes and scholars. Go run for Wiliams! They might even get All American instead of being relegated to club. Forget Brown. And hold Brown accountable for conducting these verbal gymnastics and window dressings to ax the most diverse team on its campus in favor of the least. The optics of this are just not good for Brown. SMH.

The sprinters won't leave at this point because if they are low income, they are going to Brown for free.