Doug Soles calls out NY/FM

FM boys got 2nd in the first Nationals in '04, 3rd in '05; no girls represented those first two years. The girls show up in '06 and win it, beginning a huge streak. The boys finally won in '14 after numerous podium appearances.

Changing times wrote:

Changing times wrote:

The FM boys won a couple of times, and the girls were non existent. Fortunately he started working with the girls as well, and perhaps now they get more of the focus. However 19th in the country is still very good. Maybe other teams have just caught up with the boys, but not with the girls.

A NY Runner wrote:

Actually... by the time FM's boys won NXN, their girls had already won 8 times.

Thanks for the clarification. My recollection is that the FM boys were doing great from the start of the program, and the girls started doing great later on. Is that correct or am I mistaken with that too.

All good points ... I suspect the NY teams (including Saratoga) would have accepted Nike's invitation to NTN 2004 even if limited to 9-12 graders ... an all expense paid trip to a meet to determine the top team, plus Saratoga did not have any 7th or 8th-graders in their top 7 runners in 2004 ... to say that team was really good is an understatement.

Only one 8th-grader competed at NTN 2004 and that was a girl from Scottsboro, Alabama.

Saratoga 2004 did benefit greatly by getting the two transfers from Argyle (Hannah Davidson and Caitlin Lane) ... Saratoga had their top four girls qualify for Footlocker at a time when NXN regionals did not exist and divide the talent ... The team that finished 2nd (Smoky Hill CO) had two Footlocker finalists plus a transfer who qualified for Footlocker the year before ... Those two teams ran one-two at NTN 2004 because they were the best teams.

Would have been interesting had NTN started in 2003 ... Imagine the five Argyle 8th-graders standing on the podium (and that was real possibility) ... Argyle had a 2003 school enrollment number of 205 for grades 10-12 (or 69 kids per class) ... Talk about a good small school.

Saratoga, a near-by school district to Argyle, got the transfers due to incredible stupidity and jealously among coaches, parents and administrators involved with other teams in the Argyle district ... and not by recruiting from Saratoga ... The Argyle school administration effectively destroyed the cross country team, and the word "jealous" stuck out like a sore thumb.

I researched and wrote an article about the Argyle breakup back in 2004 ... One of the local newspaper reporters told me "They've won two state championships, yet when you drive into town, there are no signs on the road, no banners in the gymnasium and no trophies in the trophy case."

Contact with parents and others lead to one memorable quote from a "coach" which I will always remember ... "They don't deserve this credit for being athletes. They are just a bunch of little girls."

So please excuse me when I get upset at the possibility of something being taken away from the "little girls" of NY.

Early History wrote:

When the notion of a national high school team championship began to be discussed, Nike staff quickly discovered that New York teams would only be involved if 7th and 8th graders were eligible to compete. Given that the best girls team in the country for the past decade would be excluded, Nike shifted from a 9-12 grade championship to a based-on-states'-eligibility rules event.

As Bill said more eloquently, this is factually inaccurate and doesn't make any sense.

Bill,

You are excused and I can understand how people are upset that anyone would suggest that 7th & 8th athletes not go to the meet. On the flip side of that, the same people who want to be excused for arguing for middle schoolers and not wanting to be judged for it, are some of the ones passing harsh judgement on the ones that do not believe it creates a level playing field and that it should be eliminated from the rules to allow for a true 9-12 high school championship, which you have shown was the original intent by Nike in the first place. Until the time we go 9-12, there truly is an asterisk next to the results of any teams that win using middle schoolers, or even just to attend the meet.

I’ve often said that Nike made a backroom deal in 2004 to get the New York teams to come, and it looks like that belief is not unfounded. Just the basis that a deal like that exists shows how un-level the playing field has been since the beginning of the event. Now 13 years later, we can look upon the results on the girl’s side and see how that deal has panned out vs. the boy’s side:

Regions # of Titles

New York 12

Heartland 1

Regions # of Titles

Northwest 3

California 3

Midwest 2

Northeast 2

New York 2

South 1

Why are the girl’s dominated by one region and the boys are not? New York is just better at XC? The boy’s results don’t show that to be true. California kids aren’t tough enough to win? The boy’s results don’t show that to be true. School size is the biggest factor? The boy’s results don’t show that to be true. What factor could give the New York and Heartland (MN) regions an advantage on the girl’s side that doesn’t really factor much on the boy’s side? Middle schoolers. The ability to tie together top end athletes that otherwise would not have ever run together because they are spaced too many grades apart. Having 6 classes to choose from vs 4 makes a huge difference for putting superstars together on the same team. Also, the ability to fill the gaps with younger girls when you are running short on talent. You can’t do these things on the boy’s side often as 7-10th graders rarely factor on a varsity boys team compared to girls. Boys teams take time to build, and rebuild, but a girls’ team that is 1-2 girls short can be filled in with younger girls to stay in contention. This is evidenced by 2013 Saratoga below:

2013 Saratoga Girl’s NXR Team (same group ran at NXN)

15 10 Samantha Vetter 8 Kinetic RC 19:11.7 9:32 9:40 125.10 125

21 15 Carley Vetter 8 Kinetic RC 19:22.6 9:41 9:42 121.47 121

24 18 Spencer Hayes JR Kinetic RC 19:25.0 9:49 9:36 120.67 121

26 20 Estela Smith JR Kinetic RC 19:27.9 9:58 9:30 119.70 120

32 25 Peyton Engborg 8 Kinetic RC 19:32.9 9:50 9:43 118.03 118

46 35 Sarah Morin SR Kinetic RC 19:48.3 10:06 9:43 112.90 113

86 71 Gabrielle Robens SO Kinetic RC 20:44.0 10:29 10:15 94.33 94

Also, everyone likes to shout out STATE ASSOCIATION rules are the reason middle schoolers are allowed, but they aren’t. Nike can make all NXR and NXN meets 9-12 without losing any state associations. You still see NY teams attend Penn Relays, they just can’t use their middle schoolers there. The deal that Nike made has nothing to do with State Association rules, it has to do with pacifying the NY teams in the early years to get them to agree to come. It is easy today to say “they would have come anyway” but that is just a guess at best and probably one Nike didn’t want to risk. The 2004 Saratoga team was something that doesn’t happen often with the combination of talented teams, and something we will not see often. I can’t blame Nike for wanting them at their meet. I do think the time has come to level the playing field by making it a 9-12 meet. This doesn’t keep anyone out of the meet, it just gives everyone the same amount of time to be a participant…4 years.

Feel free to bash me if you like. My job is to advocate for my athletes to have a level playing field, and I will continue to do that. I encourage more coaches to do the same.

Is there ever a level playing field? Some schools have 500 students others 3500, some are in stable neighborhoods some in run down inner cities. I respect you, the Aris' Jim Mitchell out of a very small school like Bronxville NY and so many others who year in and out get the job done. You've raised the bar for all of us, no need to find excuses.

Coach,

Call it an excuse if you want. I'm sure people who said they were losing to Russians in track were just making excuses for Russian superiority in track. They just needed to "suck it up" and take them on cause there was nothing to see there...

School population has nothing to do with the NXN rules.

There will never be a level playing field in terms of everything, but there SHOULD be a level playing field in terms of the rules. Would everyone stand by and keep there mouths closed if Syracuse could use their incoming recruits at the NCAA championships but no other schools could? No, coaches would make a case for a level playing field. We do not have that at NXN, but we should.

The team that finished 2nd (Smoky Hill CO) had two Footlocker finalists plus a transfer who qualified for Footlocker the year before ...

She (Keara Sammons-now Rupp)did not qualify for Finals the year before.

For those that say that there will never be a level playing field - Why wouldn't you want to see it be as level as possible?

To keep NXN as the only TRUE HIGH SCHOOL TEAM Championship, I agree with Coach Soles that ONLY HIGH SCHOOL athletes should be allowed to compete...seems simple enough.

Coach Soles,

Comparing 8th graders to dopers is a little ridiculous, don't you think?

Level playing field in terms of the rules...is pretty much the case now. Nothing in the nxn rules is stopping you from using 7th and 8th graders, correct? Personally I don't want middle school kids exposed to the intensity yet, but let's not pretend that this is purely an issue of fairness for you.

How about we level things even more by allowing small schools in the same city or district to combine, up to a max school population of 4000? You think that wouldn't make a big difference in the results?

Coach Soles wrote:

Regions # of Titles

New York 12

Heartland 1

Regions # of Titles

Northwest 3

California 3

Midwest 2

Northeast 2

New York 2

South 1

Your analysis is only looks at championship titles. If you look at second and third place finishes for the girls, you see a much greater distribution of teams from across the nation. If I haven't miscounted, only girls teams from Saratoga Springs and Manlius have ever finished in the top three from New York in the history of NXN. If you really want to address the disparity in titles, changing the rules in order to cripple teams nationally that have younger kids won't help you that much. You really just need to somehow get one team -- Manlius -- out of the equation and you'll have achieved your goal.

esp wrote:

Early History wrote:

When the notion of a national high school team championship began to be discussed, Nike staff quickly discovered that New York teams would only be involved if 7th and 8th graders were eligible to compete. Given that the best girls team in the country for the past decade would be excluded, Nike shifted from a 9-12 grade championship to a based-on-states'-eligibility rules event.

As Bill said more eloquently, this is factually inaccurate and doesn't make any sense.

Guess you missed the first three words of Bill Meylan's post in response to mine - "All good points." Then he continues "I suspect . . ." His suspicion of what might have happened had Nike held fast to a high school only meet doesn't really matter since Nike didn't hold fast.

Notice in the March 12, 2004 press release concerning "a new national high school team cross-country meet" that Saratoga coach Linda Kranick is quoted and her husband is mentioned, the only high school coaches included in the release separate from any on the committee. Obviously, Nike and/or the meet management committee spoke with the Kranicks prior to the announcement.

In the 8/7/04 "Eligibility Update" article written by Rich Gonzalez, the rules have been clarified. Nike's Josh Rowe is quoted, "We've spent considerable time and care in examining the situation, seeking to create the best possible situation while making sure teams adhere to their own unique state guidelines."

If you don't want to believe my statement that negotiations occurred, what do you think "considerable time and care in examining the situation" suggests?

I didn't compare middle schoolers to dopers. I compared the people who hide behind fake names and sling insults and call people whiners or excuse makers because it is easy to the ones that did that in the Russian doping situation.

Letsrun is easy for the weak because they don't have to stand behind anything they say because they hide behind a fake name. If you see me at a meet, feel free to come up to me and give me your opinion face to face and stand behind what you say.

The NXN rules prohibit us from using 7th and 8th graders. They wouldn't book flights for them if we tried to bring them because of said rules.

Combining schools is a pretty weak example. Feel free to keep trying though.

Early History is 100% spot on. NY has made agreements and they have helped them at the meet. Anyone wonder why Saratoga is the only team (I believe) that gets to use their club name instead of their region name? Part of the agreement.

Coach Soles wrote:

I didn't compare middle schoolers to dopers. I compared the people who hide behind fake names and sling insults and call people whiners or excuse makers because it is easy to the ones that did that in the Russian doping situation.

Letsrun is easy for the weak because they don't have to stand behind anything they say because they hide behind a fake name. If you see me at a meet, feel free to come up to me and give me your opinion face to face and stand behind what you say.

The NXN rules prohibit us from using 7th and 8th graders. They wouldn't book flights for them if we tried to bring them because of said rules.

Combining schools is a pretty weak example. Feel free to keep trying though.

? I didn't call you a whiner. I do think you have handled this poorly.

Maybe you can explain the rules that prevent CA teams, but apparently not others, from bringing 8th graders. Isn't that a result of your state association rules? If that is the case, in the interest of a level playing field, should Nike also prohibit out of season contact because so many state associations do?

The point of the combining schools example is that you continually downplay the impact of size, but you would be far less competitive against other programs if they had similar numbers (that is, a level playing field).

You think I handled this poorly. I think I got exactly what I wanted out of it...the conversation.

Your arguments do nothing to change the fact that the meet should be 9-12 to be a true high school championship. You can try to spin this or that to distract form that fact, but it doesn't change it.

Combining schools still makes no sense, but you can keep listing it if you think it is valid.

This isn't a conversation you could have had with the Nike marketing team during nxn? That might have avoided you publicly claiming that former national champions deserve an asterisk next to their title.

Look, what constitutes a 'high school', and what rules apply, will vary from state to state. Right now, nxn is not a true national championship between high school teams due to some state associations being more restrictive than others.

Personally, I would prefer 8th graders not run with HS teams. But if that is what 'high school xc' means in some states, I'm not going to complain about it. There are some areas where 'HS' is 10th-12th. I don't think we should force you to leave your 9th graders at home simply to make those schools more competitive, even though that would 'level the playing field'.

Sorry Coach, I coached at a HS that was allowed to use 7th and 8th graders on all sports teams, small school with graduating classes averaging around 95 per year. We were allowed to use them because they were in the same building under the same principal and we actually needed them to field full teams in many sports. Not sure if you look at that as an advantage, would have rather had graduating classes of 1000 to choose from.

Do the Ivies complain that they can't compete because they don't offer athletic scholarships? They still compete at the Div. 1 level and make the best of it.

You do appear to be a whiner and seem to find the camera and put yourself at the forefront. Let the kids do the running and the talking and take a backseat.

How bout this, let Doug coach at FM for 4 years and have Aris coach at GO for 4 years, see what happens.

Coach Soles wrote:

You think I handled this poorly. I think I got exactly what I wanted out of it...the conversation.

Your arguments do nothing to change the fact that the meet should be 9-12 to be a true high school championship. You can try to spin this or that to distract form that fact, but it doesn't change it.

Combining schools still makes no sense, but you can keep listing it if you think it is valid.

IT'S NOT A TRUE HIGH SCHOOL CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

IT'S A CLUB CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!

YOU want it to be a true high school championship so that you will benefit.

But it's not, and it never has been.