Dennis Kimetto - what are we Westerners still missing about Kenyan Marathoners?

fisky wrote:

In addition to the links I've posted in support of a genetic component to running success, I've seen some additional support.

About half of the world's elite marathoners fall within a sub-group of nilotics that are only 3% of Kenyans and Ethiopians. Nilotes are a haplogroup (meaning that they share the same ancestors... i.e., genetics.)

I wish I could find a link to this study. If anyone sees it, post it here.

Ethiopian athletes are mostly Oromo people (Cushitic not Nilotic), occupying most of Southern Ethiopia and Northern Kenya. The Kenyan branch of the Oromo people (known as the Borana) have, to date, not produced a single elite while their relations across the border continue to churn out Bekeles and Dibabas.

This thread explains the problem with US distance running. Westerners just want to talk about running and runners until they are blue in the face (despite the slogan of the biggest US running shoe manufacturer). The entire time this thread has been growing, East Africans have been off winning races (when was the last time Hall raced), training at altitude, eating their Ugali or Injera. Evey now and then they probably take a break to watch a little English Premier League soccer.

El Keniano wrote:

Meaning 50 odd supposedly poorer African countries should be motivated to produce more elite runners than Kenya if that line of argument is to be believed?

Maybe they are motivated. But they don't have a long tradition or a development system that allows them to more or less train professionally for years. You run for the police or army, you get paid. Run for the NCAA and you get diddly squat and you're out on your ear after 5 years.

There are probably thousands of skinny people around the world who would be great if their country had a Geoffrey Mutai to discover them. They might as well try to beat Brazil at soccer. There's nobody there to say hey you, you'd be a great runner, here's how to train.

Of all the other poorer countries, none of them have the ideal training climate you'll find in the Rift Valley.

Of all the poorer African countries, only a few are even at altitude - mostly Eritrea, Ethiopia, Tanzania, South Africa, Namibia. Morocco used to be but they're pretty rich now. Those countries all have had good marathoners.

America has nowhere to train as good as Iten. The closest we have is Flagstaff, but it still gets cold and snows in the winter. You can go to Iten yourself, but that's still a big commitment to leave your friends and family behind just to knock a few more minutes off your marathon time, so no one does it for more than a few months.

yarboughs wrote:

I'm not sure that anyone said it is completely due to genetics. But it certainly is MOSTLY due to genetics, and people trying to argue otherwise are lying to themselves.

Over time, both/and forms of argumentation tend to beat either/or, especially where we're talking about pushing back the limits of human performance.

I'm surprised how few people here remember that--even thought they'd immediately assent to the idea that optimal performance comes from careful, comprehensive preparation: working every possible edge. Diet, nutrition, motivation, training, altitude tents, shoes, etc.

Both this and this. Genetics AND culture AND life-transforming financial incentives AND soft roads AND ideal training terrain (trails and mountains). All of that stuff. It's not just one thing. It's a combination of factors.

Bad Wigins wrote:

There are probably thousands of skinny people around the world who would be great if their country had a Geoffrey Mutai to discover them. They might as well try to beat Brazil at soccer. There's nobody there to say hey you, you'd be a great runner, here's how to train.

Yes, Mutai is a genius talent scout, that's why East Africans are better distance runners, only he and a few select other E. Africans have this magical gift of spotting a talented runner.

C'mon....get real. Mutai spotted a guy who looked good. Gave him a chance to train with him. Turns out the guy was super talented. This DOES happen all over the world, but the REAL difference is: the guys other people spot as talents, while indeed talented, are not EAST AFRICAN talented.

So you think Mutai could go to the USA and go to various HS's, watch HS runners and soccer teams and other skinny guys, have them do some jogging, and he'd be spotting Kimetto's everywhere he looked, and that if these guys that he hand-picked then trained with his group for a couple years, they'd all be running 2:02's???

You're dreaming, or hallucinating.

No what else the west needs that the East Africans have: those great coaches that they have, you know the ones that came...FROM THE WEST. Yeah, we need to find some of them. Lucky East Africans...

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

No what else the west needs that the East Africans have: those great coaches that they have, you know the ones that came...FROM THE WEST. Yeah, we need to find some of them. Lucky East Africans...

Their group is coached by Patrick Sang...

I dont think you need the most perfect place to train to produce so many good runners. Maybe a great place to train will do or even an OK place to train. Moroccans did OK. Because America does not have a place as "good" as Iten, means nothing

Swedish Rounders wrote:

Of all the other poorer countries, none of them have the ideal training climate you'll find in the Rift Valley.

(...)

America has nowhere to train as good as Iten.

This is exceptional nonsense. A creation of myths, yearning for superstition, or even the quest of excuses.

manuchelsenal wrote:

This thread explains the problem with US distance running.

Westerners just want to talk about running and runners until they are blue in the face (despite the slogan of the biggest US running shoe manufacturer). The entire time this thread has been growing, East Africans have been off winning races (when was the last time Hall raced), training at altitude, eating their Ugali or Injera. Evey now and then they probably take a break to watch a little English Premier League soccer.

You're right, there are three kinds of runners:

1. Those that talk about it.

2. Those that talk about it and do it.

3. And those that just do it.

Ethiopia and Eritrea are among the most poorest countries in the world, I don't know what kind of a world you live in. Tanzania is poorer than kenya. Keep on digging people, you are close to uncovering the Kenyan secrets, Lol. Kenyans, keep on churning those miles and keep them guessing since they don't have nothing better to do.

HardLoper wrote:

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

No what else the west needs that the East Africans have: those great coaches that they have, you know the ones that came...FROM THE WEST. Yeah, we need to find some of them. Lucky East Africans...

Their group is coached by Patrick Sang...

The only good east african runners are coached by Patrick Sang?? Not even close. Many of them have European coaches. And Patrick Sang's ideas came from other western coaches, and sure, some experimentation, but not from some top-secret east african formula.

They train like everyone else, and thanks Canova, it's an open book.

It ain't the coaches.

I've understood that group including G.Mutai were self-coached.

HardLoper wrote:

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

No what else the west needs that the East Africans have: those great coaches that they have, you know the ones that came...FROM THE WEST. Yeah, we need to find some of them. Lucky East Africans...

Their group is coached by Patrick Sang...

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

The only good east african runners are coached by Patrick Sang?? Not even close. Many of them have European coaches. And Patrick Sang's ideas came from other western coaches, and sure, some experimentation, but not from some top-secret east african formula.

They train like everyone else, and thanks Canova, it's an open book.

It ain't the coaches.

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

So you think Mutai could go to the USA and go to various HS's, watch HS runners and soccer teams and other skinny guys, have them do some jogging, and he'd be spotting Kimetto's everywhere he looked, and that if these guys that he hand-picked then trained with his group for a couple years, they'd all be running 2:02's???

You're dreaming, or hallucinating.

No. If you'd read my post history instead of just posting your usual hair-trigger rant, you'd have noticed I was contrasting Kenya with the other hungry countries. Mutai wouldn't find shit in the US because people don't grow up hungry there.

And of course you act like all I mentioned was Mutai, and not the fact that Kenyan runners are employed by government institutions. Kenya has a great development system compared to every other country with poor, skinny people.

Anyone who doesn't comprehend that this excellence is NOT due to one single factor is wrong. It is easier for our brains to understand that it is simply genetics, weather, running to school, poverty etc. However, how does one explain that there are multiple Kenyan tribes in similar circumstances, yet only a few and predominantly Kalenjins have ever found international running success? How comes tribes from really poor areas of Kenya like the coastal region and northern part better runners than better off Kalenjin? Do you think Kalenjins on average run longest to school than all other ethnic groups? Also, why does everyone think the Average Kenyan knows Kenyan athletes (except the biggest names like Keino etc? Do you think every American out-rightly identifies Rupp or Hall? Believe it or not, running pales in Kenya compared to soccer. Most Kenyans could name the roster for English Premier League than could recall Kenyans representing at the Olympics. With that said and done, it does help if your training involves 40+ top athletes everyday, because those that survive are truly world class.

Runthemhillsboy wrote:

Ethiopia and Eritrea are among the most poorest countries in the world, I don't know what kind of a world you live in. Tanzania is poorer than kenya..

No, you completely misread. ONLY Morocco got richer (and subsequently worse at running). The rest are all poor. Please re-read my post with this in mind.

Tyrannosaurus Rexing wrote:

HardLoper wrote:

Their group is coached by Patrick Sang...

The only good east african runners are coached by Patrick Sang?? Not even close. Many of them have European coaches. And Patrick Sang's ideas came from other western coaches, and sure, some experimentation, but not from some top-secret east african formula.

They train like everyone else, and thanks Canova, it's an open book.

Really, "everyone else" trains just like Canova's athletes? Seriously? Maybe you ought to read more and stop digging yourself into these holes.

Swedish Rounders wrote:

Runthemhillsboy wrote:

Ethiopia and Eritrea are among the most poorest countries in the world, I don't know what kind of a world you live in. Tanzania is poorer than kenya..

No, you completely misread. ONLY Morocco got richer (and subsequently worse at running). The rest are all poor. Please re-read my post with this in mind.

Other than the G.C.C. countries, Morocco is very well off and stable compared to almost all other MENA (Middle East & North Africa) countries and there are reasons for that--longtime successful monarchy and solidification of monastic symbols in Moroccan culture; no settler colonial occupation by Europe, etc. Thus, relatively speaking, they are free of extremist Islamic terrorism, or state autocratic excess/totalitarianism and any crazy scars of European colonial oppression, divide and conquer, civil war, etc. I don't know if you can say that enough has changed since El G's time that the Moroccan talent pool has run dry. They still should conceivably pump out more talent, but leave that to Moroccan general and running-specific experts to do some interesting journalism on. Yeah, how about that, Flotrack? Do something interesting for once.

Poverty is a factor like genetics--it becomes active when coupled with certain other conditions. For our purposes, it's best to think that humble beginnings and hardships with a chance of hope and an infrastructure of meritocracy and support, is most constructive. There was a New York Times article, I think, about some West African marathoner? Training on his own and nowhere near the elites, but who for a time lived a miserable, miserable life. The "Gulag" heuristic of producing gems is just too crazy.