Dennis Kimetto - what are we Westerners still missing about Kenyan Marathoners?

George Atlas wrote:

Forget about the "will" to train hard enough and suffer enough to run 2:03-2:04 marathons that pay big money and the incentive factor related to the impoverished Kenyans.

And all the Canova talk about being more aggressive and running your long runs each week at 4:40 pace instead of 5:00-6:00 pace.

The bottom line is most of the best clean Americans or Europeans can't train that way even after 5 years of intense marathon focus. Maybe once every three weeks for a short time in a marathon buildup.

You don't think runners like Ryan Hall and Ritzenhein aren't training as hard as they can, while still recovering and steering clear of injury?

No, I have never heard of either of them training in that manner, nor any other top American marathoner.

Americans have a history of running fast mile repeats, then jogging their long runs, which is not the same thing.

It shouldn't be that difficult to see these are not the same thing. I think the problem is that many runners think what they did was the best, and eschew any possibility of some other training distinctions and nuances being better.

I think the problem is that we lack training groups. Look at guys like Geoffrey Mutai, Dennis Kimetto, Wilson Kipsang, and Emmanuel Mutai. They are in very big groups, have a group of 40+ very capable athletes is sure to make you run much better.

AND dont forget they are dopers ..........

more excuses to ignore the obvious.

all have the talent but these times are doped.

for kenyans/ethiopians 2'05 - 2'06'' is the clean cut off

european ,japanese considering altitude etc more like 2'08''

respect them if they were clean and running 2' 06 '' but not and never know how

good could be naturally as doping

It's all efficiency. Anyone from any gene pool can become a good runner, but there are gene pools with characteristics better suited for certain tasks. Arctic Natives have short/stalky build to better hold heat, etc.

1. More natural running technique means less antagonistic muscle work

2. Less unnecessary body weight means less impact each stride

3. Long legs better for cruising at high speed

So, in other words, those advantages that I mentioned are not advantages? Just look at our few higher altitude locations and add in the places where there is more of a running tradition and you get most of our elite distance runners. Think of if most of the top athletes went into distance running and were not shackled to parents or inside their whole youth. Then add altitude, dirt roads, top training groups, financial incentive and you get the results. Or again, if the advantage is genetic, why is it that Ethiopians, with quite different genetics, are all over the top rankings all time? And if Ethiopians and Kenyans somehow share their running genetics, then why is it that Kenya is much deeper in the distances than Ethiopia? More emphasis on running would explain that.

Here is why it is more successful in anywhere but America:

1- Socially acceptable to more people in Kenya to be a skinny runner.

2- Most women there are not attractive. More time to focus on running.

3- The living conditions of Kenya for most people, requires that you are able to move along a good distance to get from one thing and another. Running to work, school or recreation is not unusual in Kenya. It is not unusual here, but it is certainly not nearly as common. Not by a long shot.

4- Many very rural areas. Lack of mass transit in many rural areas.

5- A very high percentage of all people in Kenya are poor. Lacking funds or an automobile, creates an atmosphere of necessity.

6- Promise of fantastic riches in America in running in our races. A great way to become the hero child to provide the ability for your family to get out of poverty.

7- Tradition. Seeing the champions before you, like we see pro football, basketball players. They see great Kenyan runners as superstars, and hope someday to be one.

jjjjjjjjj wrote:

So, in other words, those advantages that I mentioned are not advantages? Just look at our few higher altitude locations and add in the places where there is more of a running tradition and you get most of our elite distance runners. Think of if most of the top athletes went into distance running and were not shackled to parents or inside their whole youth. Then add altitude, dirt roads, top training groups, financial incentive and you get the results. Or again, if the advantage is genetic, why is it that Ethiopians, with quite different genetics, are all over the top rankings all time? And if Ethiopians and Kenyans somehow share their running genetics, then why is it that Kenya is much deeper in the distances than Ethiopia? More emphasis on running would explain that.

Some shared genes and convergent evolution towards better running ability.

The Kenyan depth is offset by the Ethiopian quality.

What is the Ethiopian population relative to Kenya?

Me in real life wrote:

Most women there are not attractive. More time to focus on running.

Kenyan women are quite attractive to me, much more so than the typical American woman, and in much better shape too.

agc5k wrote:

I think the problem is that we lack training groups. Look at guys like Geoffrey Mutai, Dennis Kimetto, Wilson Kipsang, and Emmanuel Mutai. They are in very big groups, have a group of 40+ very capable athletes is sure to make you run much better.

It's sure to leave many of those 40+ beaten down. The desire to train in groups like this is at least partially a Kenyan cultural thing. It isn't necessarily the best for training.

fisky wrote:

In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic.

Yes - they're skinny. But that is because they're hungry, not born to be skinny.

Kenyans that eat a lot get fat just like anyone else. Kimetto grew up hungry his whole life.

They should compare Kalenjin runners to westerners who grew up poor and hungry, if they can find any.

Why do no other hungry groups of people look like Kenyans?

I would guess Kenyans have thinner bones than lets say, for example Native Hawaiians. So even hungry peoples would have different physiques.

Maybe one of the secrets to great running would be semi-starving a population so they would be skinny. Nothing like poor nutrician to help your running

To me, Ethiopians as a group have different builds than Kenyans as a group. Kenyans appear longer.

this thread has become a farce!!!!!!!!!!!!

know all the socio- economic - environmental factors by now

simply obsessed with and have talent for running with the

nature and alot of nuture.

but that gets you 2'05'' - 2'06'' and the rest is doping .

so where does doping start and stop . ,,so simply dopers.

that quality in ethiopia alot to do with superior doping

of those select few bar komen.

AND believe me, that efficiency in marathon can be aided so

much by IGF-1 LR3 and souped up nervous system .

what 1-1.5 minutes to be had ,who knowes as said where does

it start and end .doping for said individual . eg lance.

reading comp wrote:

Some shared genes and convergent evolution towards better running ability.

The Kenyan depth is offset by the Ethiopian quality.

What is the Ethiopian population relative to Kenya?

Why is this often repeated here? There was even a recent article on the homepage about the alleged lack of "quality" in Kenya.

Current population of Kenya: ~ 45 Million

Current population of Ethiopia: > 95 Million

Also, I think attributing it all to poverty is a little simplistic. While it is true poverty remains rife in Kenya, we are not the poorest by African standards. The economy is now the fourth largest in sub-Saharan Africa (remarkable for a country with no oil, minerals or similar natural resources) and are now considered technically a middle-income economy. Meaning 50 odd supposedly poorer African countries should be motivated to produce more elite runners than Kenya if that line of argument is to be believed?

Ian Syster about a change in training:

"We run our long runs very hard. Someone is always pushing the pace. That’s the key to the marathon, because if you can hang in there in practice when the pace is being pushed, you get to the point where that feels comfortable during the race." – Ian Syster, 2:07:06 Marathoner in 2002, A Brief Chat With lan Syster, by Dave Kuehls, Runnersworld.com, June 24, 2002

adcuk2022 wrote:

(...)

for kenyans/ethiopians 2'05 - 2'06'' is the clean cut off

european ,japanese considering altitude etc more like 2'08''(...)

Funny enough, this is what an european runner told me. He trained in Iten. Many rumors in the wind there about top elites.

the elite groups ran by the white money men are more than likely doping under the biological passport radar

epo microdosing and the new fat busting peptides

$$$$$$ and sport and peds are synonymous

it would be illusory to believe there is a new clean east african elite especially considering the scant out-of-competition testing

In addition to the links I've posted in support of a genetic component to running success, I've seen some additional support.

About half of the world's elite marathoners fall within a sub-group of nilotics that are only 3% of Kenyans and Ethiopians. Nilotes are a haplogroup (meaning that they share the same ancestors... i.e., genetics.)

I wish I could find a link to this study. If anyone sees it, post it here.