Ecto, meso or endo? wrote:
farmer boy wrote:I grew up to be exceptionally strong and athletic, but not as a competitive runner.
Ectomorph, mesomorph or endomorph?
ecto-mesomorph? More towards the mesomorph though.
Ecto, meso or endo? wrote:
farmer boy wrote:I grew up to be exceptionally strong and athletic, but not as a competitive runner.
Ectomorph, mesomorph or endomorph?
ecto-mesomorph? More towards the mesomorph though.
farmer boy wrote:
Ecto, meso or endo? wrote:Ectomorph, mesomorph or endomorph?
ecto-mesomorph? More towards the mesomorph though.
Well there ya go, one reason why farmer boy you can't run like farmer boy Dennis.
More meso wrote:
farmer boy wrote:ecto-mesomorph? More towards the mesomorph though.
Well there ya go, one reason why farmer boy you can't run like farmer boy Dennis.
I had enough reason with the primary one. Lack of running talent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR6byodEFNcNorDick wrote:
The Maasai live on whole milk and liquid steak. Isn't that good for building mass according to your Nordic Barbarian theory?
Not the beanpoles in robes you see on National Geographic.
But no matter what you eat, if you eat few calories, you'll be skinny. I expect if all you had to eat was cows, you'd might have to eat sparingly.
That's his hometown not his tribe.
True unadulterated Maasai tribesmen also eat a lot of calories. Actual digestible calories too.
It takes a lot of quality protein to do cow-fit.
Here's what scientists have to say on East African distance running success. Short story: It's primarily genetics.
Two separate, European-led studies in a small region in western Kenya, which produces most of the race-winners, found that young men there could, with only a few months training, reliably outperform some of the West's best professional runners. In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic. The studies found significant differences in body mass index and bone structure between the Western pros and the Kenyan amateurs who had bested them. The studied Kenyans had less mass for their height, longer legs, shorter torsos, and more slender limbs. One of the researchers described the Kenyan physical differences as "bird-like," noting that these traits would make them more efficient runners, especially over long distances.
Racial politics can make the genetics of African athleticism difficult to talk about in the West.
Surprisingly, Western popular writing about Kenyans' running success seems to focus less on these genetic distinctions and more on cultural differences. For years, the cultural argument has been that Kenyans become great runners because they often run several miles to and from school every day. But, about a decade ago, someone started asking actual Kenyans if this was true, and it turned out to be a merely a product of Western imaginations: 14 of 20 surveyed Kenyan race-winners said they'd walked or ridden the bus to school, like normal children do. Another cultural argument says they run barefoot, which develops good habits, but if this were true then surely the far more populated countries of South Asia, where living without shoes is also common, would dominate over Kenyans. Another ascribes it to the "simple food" of Kenya, but this again is true of many parts of the world, and Kenya's not-so-great health record suggests the country has not discovered the secret to great nutrition.
Source:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/
and
Leading the charge in penetrating the Kenyan mystique has been Bengt Saltin, a Swedish physiologist who heads the Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre in Denmark. In the 1990s, Saltin's group began comparing Kenyan and Scandinavian runners by scrutinizing their physiological makeups and assessing the "trainability" of novice runners in both countries.
A decade later, the scientists have ruled out most of the popular explanations for Kenyans' domination of running. Altitude is not the key to the riddle, they have found, because there's no difference between Kenyans and Scandinavians in their capacity to consume oxygen. And the Kenyan diet is on the low side for essential amino acids and some vitamins as well as fat, says Dirk Christensen of the Copenhagen center: "In spite of the diet, they perform at high level." The running-to-school hypothesis was demolished as well: Kenyan children aren't any more physically active than their Danish peers. Do Kenyans try harder? The researchers found that the Danes actually pushed themselves harder on a treadmill test, reaching higher maximum heart rates.
An important clue is the ability of Kenyans to resist fatigue longer. Lactate, generated by tired, oxygen- deprived muscles, accumulates more slowly in their blood. Comparisons of lactate levels have suggested to Saltin's group that Kenyan runners squeeze about 10% more mileage from the same oxygen intake than Europeans can.
Just as more aerodynamic cars get better gas mileage, the Kenyan build helps explain their fuel efficiency. A recent British TV documentary described the Kalenjin as possessing "birdlike legs, very long levers that are very, very thin [on which they] bounce and skip" along.
Saltin's group has quantified this observation. Compared with Danes, the thinner calves of Kenyans have, on average, 400 grams less flesh in each lower leg. The farther a weight is from the center of gravity, the more energy it takes to move it. Fifty grams added to the ankle will increase oxygen consumption by 1%, Saltin's team calculates. For the Kenyans, that translates into an 8% energy savings to run a kilometer. "We have solved the main problem," declares Henrik Larsen of the Copenhagen center. "Kenyans are more efficient because it takes less energy to swing their limbs."
However, slim lower legs are not the whole story. Kenyan runners also have a higher concentration of an enzyme in skeletal muscle that spurs high lactate turnover and low lactate production. Saltin says that this results in an "extraordinarily high" capacity for fatty acid oxidation, which helps wring more energy out of the muscles' biochemical reactions. Because intense training alters the body's biochemistry, Saltin says that he can't say for sure whether the ezyme levels are due to genes or training. But he adds, "I think it's genetic." Research in South Africa jibes with the Copenhagen group's findings.
A team led by exercise physiologist Adele Weston of the University of Sydney, Australia, compared black South Africans, whose running strengths are similar to those of Kenyans, with white runners. The two groups had similar VO2 max values—that is, when putting out maximum effort, they used up the same amount of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. But the black runners were more efficient in their oxygen consumption, lasting on a treadmill at maximum speed for twice as long as the whites. As with the Kenyans, the black South African runners accumulated less lactate and had higher levels of key muscle enzymes.
Source:
http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/AAAS_peeringUnderTheHood.htm
and this
These Kenyan runners tend to have slim legs, with high calf muscles (a genetic trait), which is a very efficient anatomy for a runner.
Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/aug/05/1
Thank you
fisky wrote:
Here's what scientists have to say on East African distance running success. Short story: It's primarily genetics.
Two separate, European-led studies in a small region in western Kenya, which produces most of the race-winners, found that young men there could, with only a few months training, reliably outperform some of the West's best professional runners. In other words, they appeared to have a physical advantage that is common to their community, making it probably genetic. The studies found significant differences in body mass index and bone structure between the Western pros and the Kenyan amateurs who had bested them. The studied Kenyans had less mass for their height, longer legs, shorter torsos, and more slender limbs. One of the researchers described the Kenyan physical differences as "bird-like," noting that these traits would make them more efficient runners, especially over long distances.Racial politics can make the genetics of African athleticism difficult to talk about in the West.
Surprisingly, Western popular writing about Kenyans' running success seems to focus less on these genetic distinctions and more on cultural differences. For years, the cultural argument has been that Kenyans become great runners because they often run several miles to and from school every day. But, about a decade ago, someone started asking actual Kenyans if this was true, and it turned out to be a merely a product of Western imaginations: 14 of 20 surveyed Kenyan race-winners said they'd walked or ridden the bus to school, like normal children do. Another cultural argument says they run barefoot, which develops good habits, but if this were true then surely the far more populated countries of South Asia, where living without shoes is also common, would dominate over Kenyans. Another ascribes it to the "simple food" of Kenya, but this again is true of many parts of the world, and Kenya's not-so-great health record suggests the country has not discovered the secret to great nutrition.
Source:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/04/why-kenyans-make-such-great-runners-a-story-of-genes-and-cultures/256015/This aticle is discussing an opinion, but the authors are not identifying any specific genes associated with Kenyan running success.
Leading the charge in penetrating the Kenyan mystique has been Bengt Saltin, a Swedish physiologist who heads the Copenhagen Muscle Research Centre in Denmark. In the 1990s, Saltin's group began comparing Kenyan and Scandinavian runners by scrutinizing their physiological makeups and assessing the "trainability" of novice runners in both countries.
A decade later, the scientists have ruled out most of the popular explanations for Kenyans' domination of running. Altitude is not the key to the riddle, they have found, because there's no difference between Kenyans and Scandinavians in their capacity to consume oxygen. And the Kenyan diet is on the low side for essential amino acids and some vitamins as well as fat, says Dirk Christensen of the Copenhagen center: "In spite of the diet, they perform at high level." The running-to-school hypothesis was demolished as well: Kenyan children aren't any more physically active than their Danish peers. Do Kenyans try harder? The researchers found that the Danes actually pushed themselves harder on a treadmill test, reaching higher maximum heart rates.
An important clue is the ability of Kenyans to resist fatigue longer. Lactate, generated by tired, oxygen- deprived muscles, accumulates more slowly in their blood. Comparisons of lactate levels have suggested to Saltin's group that Kenyan runners squeeze about 10% more mileage from the same oxygen intake than Europeans can.
Just as more aerodynamic cars get better gas mileage, the Kenyan build helps explain their fuel efficiency. A recent British TV documentary described the Kalenjin as possessing "birdlike legs, very long levers that are very, very thin [on which they] bounce and skip" along.
Saltin's group has quantified this observation. Compared with Danes, the thinner calves of Kenyans have, on average, 400 grams less flesh in each lower leg. The farther a weight is from the center of gravity, the more energy it takes to move it. Fifty grams added to the ankle will increase oxygen consumption by 1%, Saltin's team calculates. For the Kenyans, that translates into an 8% energy savings to run a kilometer. "We have solved the main problem," declares Henrik Larsen of the Copenhagen center. "Kenyans are more efficient because it takes less energy to swing their limbs."
However, slim lower legs are not the whole story. Kenyan runners also have a higher concentration of an enzyme in skeletal muscle that spurs high lactate turnover and low lactate production. Saltin says that this results in an "extraordinarily high" capacity for fatty acid oxidation, which helps wring more energy out of the muscles' biochemical reactions. Because intense training alters the body's biochemistry, Saltin says that he can't say for sure whether the ezyme levels are due to genes or training. But he adds, "I think it's genetic." Research in South Africa jibes with the Copenhagen group's findings.
A team led by exercise physiologist Adele Weston of the University of Sydney, Australia, compared black South Africans, whose running strengths are similar to those of Kenyans, with white runners. The two groups had similar VO2 max values—that is, when putting out maximum effort, they used up the same amount of oxygen per kilogram of body weight per minute. But the black runners were more efficient in their oxygen consumption, lasting on a treadmill at maximum speed for twice as long as the whites. As with the Kenyans, the black South African runners accumulated less lactate and had higher levels of key muscle enzymes.
Source:
http://www.jonentine.com/reviews/AAAS_peeringUnderTheHood.htmThis study is identifying primarily physiological differences between European and African runners. It cannot conlude whether these differences are due to genetic differences or training/lifestyle culture differences and their influences over a lifetime.
These Kenyan runners tend to have slim legs, with high calf muscles (a genetic trait), which is a very efficient anatomy for a runner.
Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/aug/05/1
This newspaper story described superficial anatomical characteristics of Kenyan runners. Maybe these differences are crucial but they need to be investigated further. For example, actually knowing the weight differences of the lower leg would help more in understanding how this could influence efficiency.
It says 400 grams less right in the article and describes how added weight increases oxygen demand.
Would you like them to actually sever the lower legs to make sure they're not being dishonest in their weighing process?
Well, that should about wrap this thread up.
"I can't say for sure whether the enzyme levels are due to genetics or training"
It's neither...
proper scientist wrote:
This newspaper story described superficial anatomical characteristics of Kenyan runners. Maybe these differences are crucial but they need to be investigated further. For example, actually knowing the weight differences of the lower leg would help more in understanding how this could influence efficiency.
I agree. This actually isn't a proper scientific study at all.
To determine the genetics of running, you have to compare fast Kenyans to slow Kenyans (yes there are lots of them), and fast Europeans to slow Europeans. You have to control for all other variables first. THEN if you find traits that correlate with running - you can start contrasting Kenyans vs. Europeans based on those traits.
A problem with the skinny calf conjecture is that while larger calves increase energy demands, those larger calves are also able to provide larger force. There's nothing in their study to confirm or deny this - all they've determined is their group of Kenyans are faster than Europeans, and made a wild-ass guess as to why.
Let me guess - these scientists are European scientists? Pretty sure they have no sort of personal agenda...because it's not like throughout history Europeans have ever made up stories about the physical or other characteristics of people unlike themselves to suit their own personal interests.
And here is another study showing that Achilles Tendon length is greater among elite Kenyan runners. The premise is that the longer achilles provides more elasticity (passive) energy so the muscles need to provide less energy. The first numbers column is Kenyans, the second is whites.
Achilles Length 264.2 mm 196.6 mm
And here is a different study showing that longer lower leg tendons correlated with better running economy.
http://sweatscience.com/tendon-length-joint-flexibility-and-running-economy/
Fisky, that study still suffers the same problem I just mentioned. It's another useful suggestion, but that's it, the data isn't worth anything.
To determine the genetics of running, you have to compare fast Kenyans to slow Kenyans (yes there are lots of them), and fast Europeans to slow Europeans. You have to control for all other variables first. THEN if you find traits that correlate with running - you can start contrasting Kenyans vs. Europeans based on those traits.
fisky wrote:
Achilles Length 264.2 mm 196.6 mm
http://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/study-calves-of-elite-kenyan-runners-have-greater-elasticity
Are you serious? Horrible choice of a sample here:
10 Kenyan distance stars (living in and around Eldoret, Kenya) with 10 non-running whites of the same height.... The whites weighed almost 30 pounds more than the Kenyans, which is a confounding variable for some of the other findings.
very simple !!!!
like sprints give me a time where under would
be considered doping for marathon !
a european ,japanese and kenyan/ethipian time due to
lifestyle and altitude have to factor different times .
so kimetto is a doper ,simples .
and epo use has moved to marathon as where it still counts.
all about training maximising all fat and enzyme, lactate
systems and then rock up with high hct within range and go.
that at least extra 3 minutes due to doping . but with doping
like lance never know how much of a performance enhancement.
fisky wrote:
These Kenyan runners tend to have slim legs, with high calf muscles (a genetic trait), which is a very efficient anatomy for a runner.
Source:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2004/aug/05/1
Vivian Parry is a journalist, not a scientist.
Umm, she wrote the story. She quotes several scientists in it. That's what good journalists do: quote the actual experts.
reading comp wrote:
It says 400 grams less right in the article and describes how added weight increases oxygen demand.
Would you like them to actually sever the lower legs to make sure they're not being dishonest in their weighing process?
It says 400 grams less "flesh". This does not account for bone mass and Africans tend to have a higher bone mineral density than Europeans. The authors have made anthropomorphic observations but with the evidence they present, they cannot prove that the differences in running characteristics of East Africans are largely due to genetic factors. Even the senior author of the study, Saltin, says "I 'think' it's genetic", so he is being cautious.