What F-M coach Bill Aris knows that no one else knows...

So there is a legitimate story.

The most dominant high school team in the country (FM Ladies) produces essentially nothing collegiately.

Short term success vs long term success.

So many angles.

*stipe wrote:

So there is a legitimate story.

The most dominant high school team in the country (FM Ladies) produces essentially nothing collegiately.

Short term success vs long term success.

So many angles.

You think these same runners would have been much more successful collegiately if they didn't go to F-M? I don't think we have evidence for that. Perhaps they reached their potential sooner than they would have if they had gone anywhere but F-M, but that's not a bad thing. Why would you expect so many future college stars to come from one mid-sized school? More likely that there are 4 or 5 girls each season, across grades 8 through 12, that could be turned into 18 min 5k runners instead of 20 min 5k runners from 100% commitment 365 days a year and staying healthy. 18 min 5K runners who are already training hard in HS aren't going to be NCAA stars and probably never were going to be. But if you get 5 girls averaging 18:00 or 18:20, you'll win NXN.

I'm not disagreeing with you. I am more likely to believe that the program produces relative overachievers in high school. It's still an interesting story. I was on a pretty good high school team. A handful of my teammates could run sub 17 on 35-40 miles per week. I needed 50-60 to do that. I didn't thrive in high school. Imagine a team running 50-75 miles per week. The fastest group goes from 16:45 to 16:00 or better. Guys like me go from 17:00 to 16:15. A lot of high school programs don't develop guys like me.

Nevertheless, it is a very compelling story. How does a dominant national women's team not produce high caliber college runners?

I ran against those guys in the late 80's. They were known for their 700 mile summers as being a standard for the serious athletes on the team. They had massive numbers similar to York High School not so much like FM.

The consensus amongst some of the college coaches I had talked to at the time when I was looking around at where I was going to go to school was they felt the Xavier guys had peaked out and you were not going to see too much more development in college.

Da Numbers wrote:

The difference is with having access to girls for 6 years instead of 4 like the majority of the country. If CA allowed access to kids in middle school this would be entirely different. Imagine if NY didn't allow middle schoolers to train/race with the HS kids and CA did. I suspect FM would maybe have 1 title still and GO would have a half dozen by now.

This is complete BS.

If having "access" to 7th and 8th graders made such a big difference, it would manifest itself WAY more on the boys side than it would on the girls. Since boys physiologically improve for athletics throughout their high school careers to a far greater extent than girls do, on average... Aris would be showing up at NXN with a team of Supermen every year, if your premise held any truth. His guys will have to run well to finish out of the bottom 5 this year, FWIW.

Is there scientific evidence that supports the claim you can't run hard for 4 years from 14-18 years old and be good later in life?

Could it be that the jump from HS to college is just that big of a jump? How many college runners go on to be world class?

These are not individual champions we are talking about, but a great team. If he had the individual FL champion 9 years in a row and they went on to be burnt out and "did nothing" in college I would say you have a point. But that's not the kind of team you are speaking of.

The fact boys improve so much more throughout high school is precisely why it doesn't matter as much if they run in middle school; they have plenty of time to develop aerobically before they are physically at their strongest.

Many girls however have a narrow window in which they can run fast; that is before they turn into women. Once they start turning into women they often go backwards, at least for a season or two, which can be discouraging enough that they stop putting forth the same effort. Many girls have a more ideal body for running as freshman and sophomores, but if they only started running as freshman they won't have the same aerobic development as those who started two years earlier. Take those same girls and give them two years of training and not only are they much faster their freshman and sophomore year, but they've probably delayed their physical development by a year or two in a way that is beneficial for running.

We are talking about an absolutely massive difference here. It is nowhere close to an even playing field between the states with middle schoolers running with high schoolers versus those just running high schoolers.

Best bet for fast girls program is to be in a state that allows middle schoolers to run with the high school team, is at altitude, and has a high population density.

Those trying to argue "development" v. "exploitive" need to define what the hell they mean by "development". Grant Fisher's coach at Grand Blanc HS emphasized his low miles and lack of intense intervals, which I am fine with, and Grant is having a great collegiate career. On the other hand, Grand Blanc isn't exactly a powerhouse in Michigan, much less on the national level. Have there been any other athletes from that school that went on to successful collegiate career? What about the vast majority of kids on that team who will never sniff success at the team level? Does "development" serve their interests well? It worked for Grant, but for the rest...potato!

The FM junior high and varsity XC teams are separate teams. The only junior high girls that train and run with the varsity at their meets are the girls who have been classified up to varsity by the required NY State Athletic Placement Process. The 2016 FM girls have zero 7th and 8th graders training and running with them this season. NY State allows Coach Aris to have access to the junior high runners, but he chose not to this season.

The FM junior high teams have separate coaches, practices and meets. FM had about 20-25 girls on this year's junior high team and about 20 girls on the varsity. FM does not have cuts. Coach Aris does not coach or have any direct involvement in the junior high teams even though NY State says he can. Only runners capable of running at a varsity level are brought up to the varsity and allowed to train and race with them.

There are other states that also allow middle schoolers on varsity yet many of them never do well. And these states have holly courses too. Like anything it's about creating a culture of excellence . The Aris' have done it. The great coaches around the country do it.

I'm curious if the athletes at F-M get injured more than other HS programs. If not how can anyone disparage the program?

Shhhhhhhhh... you're destroying a butt-hurt Californian's precious theory with facts...

Aris has a version of a formula that is powerful.

In Illinois, many of the powerhouse teams like Naperville North (girls), York, Nequa Valley, Palatime and Yorkville have lots of junior high kids in their summer programs.

At York, there's 400 plus boys and girls in grade school running in the Kern camp. When it was Newton's camp, there was far fewer jh boys and very few girls. The boys who ran with Newton around were already in the pipeline, soaking up the York sun and preparing to be good. Preparing because few of them were outstanding until they got the full York treatment of hard, hard work and coaching by a motivational genius.

In Elmhurst, there are running clubs in just about every junior lhigh. The kids will run at lunch or before school with no goal for competition. It's amazing how many kids are in these programs. The two Catholic primary schools have very large and successful track and cross programs. On both the girl and boy side, there are probably 200 kids + each gender in EVERY incoming class who have run at least recreationally. Even with that, York's boys were 16th this year and girls made it downstate for only the first time in several years. It takes more than numbers and a pipeline.

Of the programs listed above, Yorkville has the best girls' feeder. Every year, their girls team can restock with freshmen. And not just with a single kid or two, but they have had as many as 6 kids walk in the door having run under 12:30 for two miles in cross in grade school. Yorkville won the girls state championship in the Class AA (middle enrollment division) 6 years in a row. Before the current coach got there a few years before that, they were absolutely awful, lucky to have 5 to compete, maybe get a single kid under 20 min for three miles.

A few years ago, Yorkville won state and the next year started the season with their top five scorers as freshmen. You can understand that when a program can even slide in two kids into a top notch varsity program each year, you're going to be a contender. Aris not only can usually slide in a freshman or two each year, he can train the kids who are ready to compete with his varsity kids. And with girls, there's usually a 7th or 8th grader who can do that, although according to this thread not this year.

Yorkville just moved up to the big division as the exurbs grow, but they still are close to FM's size. They were around 1500-1600 for most of their title run and are now around 1700. They have one middle school on the same campus. Every kid from that middle school feeds into Yorkville High School. The varsity coach has a great deal of input in the junior high program, which has huge numbers. And therein lies one of their keys to winning.

The linchpin to Yorkville's girls success is that an enormous percentage of girls do track and/or cross in grade school. When other top athletes at other schools are being shackled into the club volleyball/ basketball/ softball etc pipelines, Yorkville's got the good athletes playing track as well.

And that's how they run the junior high program. They work, but it feels like play. The junior high coach is very popular. Kids who at other schools would never touch running have joined the team, liked it, and entered the Yorkville varsity pipeline.

The difference is that Aris has figured out every component of running success. And quite frankly, even though the Yorkville program does big miles (Sunday long run of 12 miles), the coach is fairly relaxed. They have a smart program, just not all encompassing.

Aris says that he is an "all in" kind of guy, and spends most of his day figuring out every aspect of every part of the program. He said his wife is a well paid health care professional and he can afford to be obsessed. He said that he likes to individualize workouts, and had time to do that.

For the edification of other coaches who haven't heard him talk, here's some of his main points. (Don't go hear him talk expecting workout specifics. It's a secret.)

1. Get iron, sleep and diet right. Without those, no method of training will have great effect. Sounds simple, but it's astounding how many programs and how many girls suffer by not ever putting any emphasis on these at all.

2. The Stotan philosophy. Wherever you see a good program, they usually have a philosophy that combines hard work with self sacrifice for the good of the team. Aris found something unique, fun and motivating.

3. Train all year with the same philosophy. He goes for strength, in the weight room and in workouts. He says he is almost never on the track and is not focused on track success, even though he said his girls team could break 9 in the 4 X 8 running just strength. When I heard him talk about 7 years ago, he said his top girls did around 50-55 miles per week, but there were kids slightly above and many below that number.

New York allows them access to the kids all year. The Saratoga coaches practice 365 days a year. When the wife spoke at an Illinois clinic about ten years ago, she said it was hard for them to travel because they were anxious not to leave their kids alone for a couple days. I thought she meant she had toddlers at home, but they have no kids. She meant their runners.

Most states don't allow anywhere near this much contact. But you can use track, cross and summer to make a more coherent, unified path for running progression.

4. Aris expects them to be like him - all in. There are no cuts, but the team is small because that kind of dedication is not for everyone.

A similar philosophy from the other end would be the Stillwater program. That guy runs basically the same miler based workouts even in cross. They can finish a 5k well, but just barely.

5. NXN is the goal. For most teams, it's icing on the cake. National post season meets are not about getting better, but who slides back the least.

bathtubgin wrote:

Aris is a total badass. I have more respect for him than probably anyone else in the sport.

Besides the culture and training philosophies, they also have a few other things going for them (IMO):

1) Money: FM is a very wealthy school district. Allows funding for big invitationals, parents that can take time off work, and all the socioeconomic forces that go along with being rich.

2) Syracuse weather: Makes you tough as nails, and prepared to run well in late november/early december.

3) Green Lakes State Park: Amazing resource where they do a majority of their training. Sounds silly, but I think it plays a significant part.

And the man is a GENIUS. Seriously listen to him and you will see that pretty quickly. He knows everything about running, training and equipment. Also he has passion and respect for the kids.

The fact that his kids are not stars in college just shows what a great coach he is. If he coached them in college they would be stars.

Look at his teams, all levels of talent are members. Kids who go through his teams may not become professional runners but they will become winners in life. They learn how to prioritize, select goals and do what they need to accomplish those goals.

I'm not a FM guy, but I'm in the area and have seen him and his teams at work. ..........Many would like to think he is a slave driver who doesn't care about kids just results, but nothing could be farther from the truth. He's a real good guy. He is arrogant?..... well if you won as many times as he did, you would have a lot of confidence that your way is the right way - and it probably is.

FM in College... wrote:

Also his semi-pro team has never produced anyone good, and he usually just injures his athletes because of over-training.

Anecdotally, Fred Joslyn chased an OT marathon qualifier under the tutelage of Jack Daniels and did a stint with the Hansens, but didn't achieve his best marathon performance (by a significant margin) until he joined Aris's group.

I believe Meagan Krifchin did a lot better under Aris than she's done before or since.

One wonders what would happen if a kid with Rupp-like talent fell into his hands at a young age.

this and this wrote:

But what about developing a love for and interest in running? Do most of the FM kids even run in college? Do they run on their own through life? Do they maintain an active fit lifestyle?

Are they incredibly driven Type A personalities that go on to devote and focus a huge part of their life to their family/job/business?

There are people who love to compete and just happen to run, and there are people who love running who just happen to be competitive at it. There seem to be a lot of people on this website who honor the latter and deride the former. What's wrong with not developing a lifetime love of running? The mentality and culture that Aris appears to instill in these kids has applications and advantages in many other aspects of life outside of running, and are easily translatable into other active pursuits post-running.

their top two girls are freshman. White has run in the program full time since indoor of seventh grade. Walters has run in the program since june of 7th grade. That is a significant advantage over schools who can't run modified kids. They may not be scoring as middle school students but they are getting years of mileage in. Possibly, a double edge sword because it could also be the reason they are breaking down before the graduate.

Having access to the middle school kids is a major factor if it is done properly. If the kids are improperly trained, yes, it can be a disaster.

But for programs like Saratoga and FM they are able to build the middle school athletes into the culture of the team. This is more of a mental maturation process more than anything else. It takes kids and parents with no contact to a program a good year or more to adjust. If you are a coach then you definitely understand this.

Combine that with year round periodized training and yes your athletes are going to run 20 seconds per mile faster than other good teams. They are very good about how they don't follow the grind of attempting to peak three times a year. They do strength training, look at long range development, cement that in with great team chemistry and expectations.

I've heard others say they are not giving out their secrets. I'm pretty sure they have. Coaching a team is 70% motivational / mental and 30% about the mechanics of it. They have both categories down. The motivational / mental piece is what gives them the edge. There is no way to teach this piece at a coaching clinic. You have to know people and figure out what works for each athlete because they are all different. You either have that talent as a coach or you don't. They obviously do.

The longer you have to work the kids into the culture of the team the better. I'm not sure how you can argue with that?

Almost every school in NYS had access to middle schoolers yet F-M dominates and Saratoga is still excellent.

I don't see the commonwealth of Kentucky and other states that allow middle schoolers doing well in XC.

Perhaps while other coaches are whining and making excuses the great ones are positive and build a culture of excellence

Top national hs teams usually are there because they have a bunch of good but not great guys. That is not true in football in Florida at least (the state with the most NFL players produced, or co-#1 with California). IMG Academy, the top Florida team, has #2, 6, 8, 13,17-20 prospects in the state of Florida.

http://247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/CompositeRecruitRankings?State=FL