Dennis Kimetto - what are we Westerners still missing about Kenyan Marathoners?

Soccer has far more variables than running. A player can have any of a number of strengths or specific skills and there is a whole slew of positions that favor various genetic traits.

Running is very one dimensional.

Pele! wrote:

Soccer has far more variables than running. A player can have any of a number of strengths or specific skills and there is a whole slew of positions that favor various genetic traits.

Running is very one dimensional.

What's yer point?

Europeans are better at soccer because they have superior development academies, nothing more.

Math Major wrote:

Pele! wrote:

Soccer has far more variables than running. A player can have any of a number of strengths or specific skills and there is a whole slew of positions that favor various genetic traits.

Running is very one dimensional.

What's yer point?

Europeans are better at soccer because they have superior development academies, nothing more.

Europe is better at team play, not individual skill.

Speaking of genetics, it seems interesting that great decathletes are often mixed race.

Daley Thompson

Dan O'Brien,

Brian Clay

Ashton Eaton

Discus

Pele! wrote:

Math Major wrote:

What's yer point?

Europeans are better at soccer because they have superior development academies, nothing more.

Europe is better at team play, not individual skill.

No, the majority of best individual soccer players are white

Math Major wrote:

Pele! wrote:

Soccer has far more variables than running.

Running is very one dimensional.

What's yer point?

Europeans are better at soccer because they have superior development academies, nothing more.

His point ( a simple one apparently too complex for many on here who make the same argument about other sports too) is that running is a FITNESS sport, plain and simple. Other sports/games like, say archery, are SKILL sports. Sports like soccer and basketball combine fitness AND skill, AND strategy. In these latter sports, what one lacks in fitness categories such as speed, strength or endurance, one can make up for with perfection of skills, and even strategy.

Perfection of skills appears to be far less genetically determined, and with the right instruction and countless hours of practice, one, with certain limitations, can become very skilled at an activity. I am not saying there are not natural affinities for certain skills, however I am saying these appear to be more capable of being developed, even when one initially appears untalented at the skill. Furthermore, people who learn the strategy of the game, can outmaneuver even those with much more talent and fitness. KNOWING the game matters in these sports.

But running it is different. Strategy/tactics, in the big picture, matter little. With sprinting, so much of it is natural talent. With distance running, while one can certainly improve with many hours of practice, the natural ability to be able to withstand, and then absorb the hard hours of training, and then translate this stress/stimulus into improved capabilities appears to be highly genetically determined. Despite the letsrun peanut gallery protestations, not everyone can gradually work their way up to 120 mile weeks and then keep getting better, and better until they reach world class status. Many break down WAY before they reach those training levels, and many other reach those amounts of training, but don't develop to being even in the same ballpark as the East Africans. This is the greatest "talent" of all: being able to withstand harder and harder training, and then get better from it instead of destroyed by it.

As the poster said: running is very one-dimensional. The cream rises to the top, the fittest person (not the most skilled, or smartest strategic mind) reaches the top of the world. You need the TALENT to get there, more than many sports.

Every single one of those records is so dirty ,wake up..

400m first kenyan record aided by epo , very true.

Then just neglected event for longer distances.

So dirty these records.

Natural talent but still very much aided absolutely.

No progression in these pure distance events ,

Simply as can't dope like before right up to event

And all season long.

800m and steeplechase progressive due to other PEDs

Igf-1 lr3 ,speed ,strength etc as long as endurance up there.

Going straight to marathon not just for incentives but as

Where epo use as it stands will be biggest aid to that event

All about training with epo !!!!!! (And hitting race with high enough hct)

Getting all enzymes and energy systems and fat burning systems

Up to where need to be.

By forcing max adaption tru as much training as possible

Without burn-out.

Burning fat reserves faster and better.

Sure could find this in Europeans ,maybe less occurance.

Have to find athletes like kimetto that have physiology

Like this but still doesn't mean clean

Proper off season testing ,or even the sensitive epo test

And there goes your progression in event .

Do you have any evidence that soccer is not as genetically linked as running? Every football fan knows that footballers all have their ceilings. The best players are doing whatever they can in their control to push their limits, and are eventually running into the limits of what they cannot control - genetics and early childhood development/nutrition/whatever else - the same as what happens in running.

And the point "Business Exec" was trying to make, I think, was that you could look at a list of world cup champions and conclude that white people are on average better, but that would not imply it is because of genetics.

As a multiracial person myself, I am of the opinion that intermixing is a natural instinct--when you eliminate prejudice and provinciality from the equation--of world peoples. The longing in our loins for exotic combinations enhances the gene pool, creates, generally, strong and healthy offspring and benefits humanity.

I was thinking about some of the decathletes (you mentioned) who have admixtures of African and Asian genetics, recently when I was reading about "coolie" labourers and the hardships faced by Chinese immigrant workers who might have intermarried with native populations in the Americas. Those decathletes were likely more recent mixtures, but it would be interesting to speculate/salivate over what kind of robust, strong human being you would see through mixing African slave and Asiatic coolie labourer descendants.

Bad Wigins wrote:

Once again, the Kenyans have more people that grow up hungry and end up with small-boned skinny frames as a result.

Even the poorest Americans grow up eating better than a Kenyan so they end up with big-boned frames that they sometimes artificially keep skinny, like Galen Rupp.

That's all there is to it. More naturally skinny people = more fast distance runners. It really is that simple.

This is not the only factor but it is a big factor people aren't considering. The IAAF has a piece on Patrick Makau (which appeared before the new record was set). According to that, he survived on ONE MEAL a day! growing on up on parents farm, while having to make a FOURTEEN kilometer roundtrip to school and then later endeavouring to become a distance runner and salvage his life and family's fortunes out of poverty (he was said to live in a poor central farming district). A few years ago, I read about how Tsegaye Kebede (albeit an ethiopian) also grew up in a large impoverished farming family and barely scraped by on meager portions of bread.

I believe we westerners make a general mistake of forgetting the years of our lives... We train in high school, college years and early adulthood and put our minds and hearts into it. And that's all great! But by the time we are 16 or 17, we have lived many years and many moments. I look at toddlers and kids and am always astonished at how--bad behavior aside--they are so capable and intelligent. A lot happens in our lives growing up--we just tend to forget about it when we reach the rational adult age. Westerners, growing up through Middle School, do not undertake the on-our-feet day to day endurance activity, connection to the elements and sparse diets that the Kenyan farmers who make up the golden talent pool do.

We face tons of "distractions" (that are really integral and necessary to Western existence, social acceptance, etc.) in multimedia, technology, cityscapes, schooling, learning, etc. Even in spite of this, we are starting to catch up with East Africans in distance running at least on the track.

0/10

All those decathletes dopers .

Explain why the two true all timers came from

Same area. Czech rep.

Epo helped him run that 1500m in 2001 besides obvious others

PEDs involved.

As for Paula , explain how she and Chinese women

Did it . simples better dopers .

Women,s bones will only raise hct so high in responce

To epo and to get these performances needed to go alot

Higher and bag blood near race to complete job.

No many women especially Ethiopians ever in position

To do this.

Igf-1 lr3 + epo + no testing + Berlin = w.r 2.02"57"

Kimetto , mutai are dopers , absolutely without doubt.

And don't neglect importance of enhanced nervous system

From igf-1 in keeping form ,efficiency ,stride,etc

If only Salazar had it

Math Major wrote:

Do you have any evidence that soccer is not as genetically linked as running? Every football fan knows that footballers all have their ceilings. The best players are doing whatever they can in their control to push their limits, and are eventually running into the limits of what they cannot control - genetics and early childhood development/nutrition/whatever else - the same as what happens in running.

And the point "Business Exec" was trying to make, I think, was that you could look at a list of world cup champions and conclude that white people are on average better, but that would not imply it is because of genetics.

You could just as easily conclude that mixed race Brazilians are the best.

Genee wrote:

genetics blah blah blah wrote:

That's not how it works in running. There is no ideal body shape, that's just your insecurity. What it takes is the right mentality.

Lots of top runners have parents who never ran or did any sport.

You guys are all looking at body shape, and ignoring the will to win. It's just stupidity.

If I offend you, then you know how I feel about your stupid concepts of the ideal runner.

Well at least you're admitting you are weak and don't have the will to win.

Even if "the will" to win is the difference...did it occur to you that "will" or personality or mentality depends on genetics?

Forget about the "will" to train hard enough and suffer enough to run 2:03-2:04 marathons that pay big money and the incentive factor related to the impoverished Kenyans.

And all the Canova talk about being more aggressive and running your long runs each week at 4:40 pace instead of 5:00-6:00 pace.

The bottom line is most of the best clean Americans or Europeans can't train that way even after 5 years of intense marathon focus. Maybe once every three weeks for a short time in a marathon buildup.

You don't think runners like Ryan Hall and Ritzenhein aren't training as hard as they can, while still recovering and steering clear of injury?

Its genetics and environment, with environment mainly being through evolution the Kenyans adapted to survive with very little food. There must be an advantage physiologically with training hard and staying ultra lean and not breaking down that has been passed down through generations of famine and poverty.

Doing weekly sessions of 15-20 mile runs at 4:50 pace, and 3-4 times 5000 sessions at 4:30-40 pace with short recovery might be what it takes to run 2:03 but it takes many years of development for the very best to handle that. For some reason a lot of Kenyans can handle that after 3- 4 years of serious training.

These guys are near world records at 18-21 years old!

They have a genetic edge. And I agree they are more motivated because of the money incentive but you can't tell me other runners aren't as single minded and devoted as they are coming from better conditions.

Genee wrote:

Math Major wrote:

Do you have any evidence that soccer is not as genetically linked as running? Every football fan knows that footballers all have their ceilings. The best players are doing whatever they can in their control to push their limits, and are eventually running into the limits of what they cannot control - genetics and early childhood development/nutrition/whatever else - the same as what happens in running.

And the point "Business Exec" was trying to make, I think, was that you could look at a list of world cup champions and conclude that white people are on average better, but that would not imply it is because of genetics.

You could just as easily conclude that mixed race Brazilians are the best.

An equally wrong conclusion, yes

George Atlas wrote:

These guys are near world records at 18-21 years old!

no they ain't, I don't care what their passports say

2h 15 is over 12 mins slower than the current world record.

Your example basically reinforces the importance of genetics.

Its not the 1950s wrote:

2h 15 is over 12 mins slower than the current world record.

Your example basically reinforces the importance of genetics.

No it does not. Aside from the obvious male/female differences, all differences between white people and Kenyans that have been mentioned - calf size/location, small frame, long thin limbs - are not gender specific traits.